Fighting Back: Handling Courtroom Harassment from an Ex

Join us as we sit down with Co-Founder of "Been There Got Out", High-Conflict Divorce Strategist and Certified Domestic Violence Advocate, Lisa Johnson, to discuss your options when a contentious divorce results in legal abuse, and how you can fight back.

In this episode of Modern Family Matters, host Steve Altishin interviews Lisa Johnson about legal abuse and what to do when an ex-partner uses the
court system as a weapon of harassment. Lisa shares her personal experience of a decade-long divorce battle that included over 100 court appearances and resulted in a published case in the Connecticut Law Journal. The conversation explores the psychological motivations behind legal abuse, including personality disorders and
addiction to revenge, and provides practical strategies for combating this form of harassment. Lisa emphasizes the importance of strategic communication, maintaining "clean hands" in court, and understanding that
traditional logical approaches often fail when dealing with high-conflict personalities.

As a leading divorce firm in Portland, our attorneys provide guidance on custody, alimony, separation, estate planning, and more. Learn what to expect in Oregon and Washington divorce cases and how we can help.

If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.

To learn more about Lisa Johnson and how she can help you, check out her website at: https://beentheregotout.com/

Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.

Transcript

Speaker 1 00:00:01
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you, covering a
wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters. With expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests,
we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's
your host, Steve Altishin.

Speaker 2 00:00:32
Hi everyone. I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnership to Pacific Cascade Legal, and today we have high conflict divorce
coach and certified domestic violence advocate, Lisa Johnson, to talk about fighting back against legal abuse. What to do
when your ex is using the court system to harass you. That's a mouthful, but we're gonna get to that. Before that though,
Lisa, just can you kind of talk about yourself, how you kind of got to be doing what you're doing?

Speaker 3 00:01:02
Sure. So, of course we're gonna talk about my favorite topic today. I, so I'm, like you said, I'm Lisa. I'm a high conflict
divorce strategist, I like to say. And I'm the female half of been there, got out. So I myself never imagined that I ever would
get divorced. And it happened after about 20 years with my ex, and I thought it would take a couple of months and, and
amicably and it co the divorce took a year and everything took about 10 years. So, uh, along the way I realized it was that I
was dealing with, and my background is as a high school English teacher and I thought, I wonder if I could use my
education degree as well as my education in the trenches to help other people. So one of the things that really got me
involved in this was after that first year and spending a hundred thousand dollars, which I'm gonna pay back forever, my
lawyer said, you cannot afford me anymore.

Speaker 3 00:01:57
Your ex is not gonna comply with this agreement and you gotta go on your own. So let's set you up for as much success as
possible, but you're gonna be back in the muck without me. And so he gave me some ideas and then went another
seven-ish years and about a hundred court appearances. And I, it was awful and wonderful at the same time. 'cause there
were a lot of victories and triumphs. And the cherry on top was the case being notable enough to be published in the
Connecticut Law Journal. So it's case law for the state, which, uh, everyone, every lawyer tells me they've never heard of a
pro se or self-represented litigant being published. So I'm really proud of that. So using, again, my education degree and all
this experience in family court has led me to been their, got out with my partner and we absolutely love what we do. And all
of our clients belong to the, my lawyer says this is the craziest case they've ever had. Club Oh

Speaker 2 00:02:53
My gosh, this is great stuff to talk about. The, you know, we do family law and abuse is all, not always, but is, is you know, at
times an issue in, in a lot of family law cases, but sort of the physical abuse that other kind of stuff. And also people do
behave very badly <laugh>,

Speaker 3 00:03:17
You're telling me.

Speaker 2 00:03:18
Yeah. And those are usually handled on two separate sort of spheres and don't really get kind of like put together as, oh
hold it. This is happening. And it's really also this. So I loved it when you used the term legal abuse. And so maybe we'll just
kind of talk about what do you mean by legal abuse and what does it do?

Speaker 3 00:03:40
Okay. So like you said, a lot of times people think of abuse. They, when we talk about domestic violence, most people think
of physical, but there's all kinds of hidden abuse and legal abuse fits into that. And that's when somebody is basically using
the legal system to wear another person down and bleed them dry financially. And so it's called legal abuse, but it has other
names that are a little more colorful. So one bland, one is litigation abuse, another is paper abuse because there's so much
paper involved in these cases that go on for years and cost tons of money. Another one that I love is judicial terrorism, but
my favorite is stalking through the court because we always say that once you get outta that day-to-day relationship, your
ex is limited to three ways to still get at you money kids. And the court and the court and money go hand in hand. And that's how they keep you still attached is by being stuck in court together. So it's awful and we just learn ways to live with it. And
I'm sure we'll get into that in a few minutes.

Speaker 2 00:04:44
Working with your clients and working with, with people in this situation, I mean, you obviously come to know something
about the other person, the one who's kind of doing it. And, and this is a simple and dumb question, but it's sort of a lead
up. You know, why are they doing this? What makes people act this way?
Speaker 3 00:05:03

It's really interesting. One of our clients just yesterday happens to be a psychiatrist and he said he was talking about
something he listened to on addiction. And we always think about how people are addicted to all kinds of things. But one
thing that all of our clients' exes have in common in terms of what they're addicted to is revenge. Yeah. They get pleasure
out of punishing you and they will do anything to get it. And I think that's why people like this do it. So most of our clients
exes have some kind of personality dis disorder or, and or addiction issue. And so they don't see the world the same way
that let's say other people do. And when a relationship ends, everybody's angry. But most people, normal people, the anger
subsides, they settle down, they figure out how to work together and do what's best for the kids.

Speaker 3 00:05:57
Our client's exes don't, the anger stays the same, it never subsides. And so that anger comes from a feeling of
abandonment that's usually connected to something in their childhood. And so instead of dealing with those uncomfortable
feelings, also fear or failure that the, the relationship didn't work out, it turns into rage. And then there's something called
splitting that goes on where they, I mean, these people generally see the world as very black and white. So it's like, you're
either with me or against me and I'm the victim and you are the villain and I'm going to do everything to destroy you. I will
spend countless amounts of dollars, I will ruin the kids, I don't care, but I just wanna prove to the world that I didn't do
anything wrong. And it's all your fault.

Speaker 2 00:06:43
A and they get these opportunities it seems like, out of just the way a divorce process works. I mean, you know, there's
service, return of service, there's disclosure, there's depositions, there's all these ways that are all that are built into, you
know, make it go right. That they, it sounds like they, they twist,

Speaker 3 00:07:05
You know, you're making me think of something Steve, when I, with my wonderful lawyer that I spent too much money on,
because he was my best friend that year. But his, his paralegal told me, and I'll never forget it, she said, when you get outta
the relationship, the power dynamic shifts to 10 times what it was in the marriage. And I thought about how my ex, when
we'd argue, he would just stonewall. He would just go silent and refuse to cooperate. And going through the legal system
with someone like that, especially with the discovery process where everyone's supposed to basically financially undress
and show what they have so you can figure out how to divide it. And my ex just refused to cooperate. And we see that as a
theme with our client's exes as well. Hidden assets, hidden income. You're chasing after information all the time and
burning through money trying to get it. So that power dynamic continues through the process. And it's also a stage, a lot of
these people, appearances matter. And so it's a whole new level of people to manipulate while you're suffering.

Speaker 2 00:08:09
Yeah. And you know, the natural reaction I know and and from attorneys is, okay, we're gonna be the logical ones here.
We're gonna make sure the judge understands through logic what's happening and apply that. It almost feels like logic
doesn't rationally apply in some of these cases because that doesn't really stop anything.

Speaker 3 00:08:32
Thank you for saying that. We always tell people that we kind of fill the gaps between what attorneys are not trained to do
and therapists don't quite understand. And we say, you guys, you're, you're trained in logic. So the problem with these
cases that lawyers and, and most of the world approach them from that logical perspective, you think, okay, both parties are
gonna come to the table and they're gonna do what's fair and they're gonna do what's best for the kids. But someone like
RX doesn't care about those priorities. They care about themselves and themselves only. So everything has to be approached very, very differently when you're dealing with someone who's irrational because their judgment is impaired.
They're not even thinking in their own best interests. And so things have to be handled very, very delicately. So a lot of
times our clients will think, okay, well I was in this abusive relationship, so I have to get a pitbull attorney to stand up to my
ex.

Speaker 3 00:09:26
That is one of the worst things that you can do with someone who has some kind of mental illness because to come in with
blame and accusations is just gonna explode. And explosions cost money. So you instead wanna do everything you can.
And this is what we try to work with our clients, and I'm sure you do too, to keep them outside of court, to, to turn the
volume down on the conflict. Even if you're dealing with a really difficult ex, there are so many ways you can approach it to
sort of use what you know about them from being in the relationship to keep things calm, not to inflame things and not to
hire what's called negative advocates. People who will contribute to the conflict. We'll say, you deserve this and you need
the, it just makes everything worse. And of course the harm really comes to children who are in the middle of it because the,
the conflict bleeds onto them.

Speaker 2 00:10:20
Yeah, that is absolutely true. I like, I like what you're saying about sometimes fighting fire with fire just makes the fire worse.

Speaker 3 00:10:30
Mm-hmm <affirmative> because think about an animal when you attack an animal and they feel cornered, they're gonna lash
out and attack back.

Speaker 2 00:10:38
So if I come in and I say, you, I've got this horrible person and this is what's going on. And it feels like what you're kind of
talking about, just dragging the case on. I mean, you know, we've had client, you know, clients who have had their exes due
over and over again, I should say this can go past just the divorce co-parenting where

Speaker 3 00:11:00
Always Yeah,

Speaker 2 00:11:01

Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:11:02

The divorce is just the part, part one. That's what we say. Yeah. It always goes past the divorce <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:11:07

So, so what can people first of all recognize that this is happening? 'cause that sometimes can be the hardest part and then
maybe move on to getting around it or fixing it, or what do you do about it?

Speaker 3 00:11:20
So for me and my background is also as an English teacher and as a writer. And I feel like the best way to start addressing
this power imbalance is through something we call strategic communication. And when I was teaching high school, one of
my favorite things was to teach persuasive writing and anticipating the argument from the other side and using a
concession, like embedding that argument into what I was saying. So a lot in, in strategic communication involves really
understanding your ex's perspective and using it against them. So we, we actually just came up with a course recently, it's
called How to Communicate with your Ex Without Destroying Your Case or Losing Your Mind. And because we know that
this is the number one thing that triggers everyone is getting messages from their ex, we're like, let's figure out a way to use
this as documentation, but also to start turning the power dynamic around in the relationship.

Speaker 3 00:12:16
So when we do strategic communication with our clients, we teach them that this is a system where you are communicating, you're writing to your ex, but you are really writing for an invisible audience, a judge, a custody evaluator, mediator, child's
therapist, guardian, ad litem, minor's counsel, whatever. And so your goal is you want to present yourself as the most
reasonable, best co-parent ever. And at the same time you're documenting the other side's patterns of behavior, not a
onetime crazy incident, patterns of behavior over time and the impact it has on your child specifically and on your
relationship with your child. Because we know the other side is gonna try to start turning your kids against you because
that's part of what they do as well. And so in the process, you're basically building targeted documentation for your case.
You're turning hearsay into evidence. You we're making sure that you're aligning with one of those best interest factors that
most courts consider, which is the level of cooperation between the parties because we're always gonna make sure you
look like you're doing everything you can to work with this person.

Speaker 3 00:13:26
And like I said, it starts turning the power dynamic around. And it also protects you from false claims of parental alienation
because often when the other side doesn't get their way, they start saying that you are the one who's turning the kids
against them because they don't take accountability for their own behavior. So we always wanna make sure our clients
never even unconsciously might be doing things that they think are fine that in court could look bad. So for example, when
a child is sick, a lot of people think, all right, my kid is sick, I'm just gonna keep them with me. And then my ex still wants to
see the kid, but my kid is in bed and I don't wanna let them go. We tell them it's somebody else's access time if they insist
and they can physically get out of bed, you need to allow your ex to take care of your child because the court wants to see
that both parents have the opportunity to, to be responsible. So you can't unilaterally decide that you're going to break that
parenting plan, that custody access time because you think that's right because that could be spun against you. So people
often aren't exactly aware of what that means. And so again, we like to really make things clear about what's, what's
expected and why. 'cause we don't want our clients to get in trouble.

Speaker 2 00:14:37
Oh god. Yeah. And that's sort of the, again, number one thing is don't react by saying, well my spouse did this, so I'm gonna
do that. And it just makes it worse. It

Speaker 3 00:14:51
Just, yeah. And it seems like a double standard sometimes because I know, especially when I was going through my own
divorce, my ex, like I said, refused to comply with the discovery process and I kept getting hammered with all these
questions and I said to my attorney, why do I have to spend all this time and money? Like get, I'm doing everything perfectly
and he's not cooperating and nobody's doing anything about it. And my lawyer taught me the term clean hands. He said, we
want you to have clean hands because if you do one thing wrong, they're gonna spin it and we don't want any distractions.

Speaker 2 00:15:22
Yep. And there is sort of a little bit of a shining hope at the end because if a judge finds, and we've seen this so many times,
if a judge finds one of the parties not being truthful, it is very common that everything that person says, now they're going
to have a little bit of skin and not necessarily just believe them. So I mean, you know, and and the worst thing that happens
is when both start doing it, then the judge sort of goes, I dunno that I believe all, any of you,

Speaker 3 00:16:00
Right? Yeah. Your credibility is everything.

Speaker 2 00:16:03
Yes. Yep. It's exactly right. That's like, you know, the, the actions. But it's gotta be tough for people to even get to that point
mentally and emotionally because they just break down on these high stress, terrible divorces where the other side is just
beating them into a pulp. I mean, how do you help keep them kind of mentally or, or emotionally going forward?

Speaker 3 00:16:33
So we, we have a little hashtag, uh, that we actually use in our monthly newsletter. It's called From Puddle to Ninja. So when
you say they're all broken down, that's, that's what we call, like someone arrives to us, most people arrive to us in that
puddle state where they're just an, they're just a mess. And most of our clients are very well educated, highly successful in
other areas of their life, which makes it even harder for them because there's this additional level of shame. Like people look to them to be a role model and they don't wanna talk about what's happening because there's a lot of judgment like, oh, I
never thought someone like you would fall into something like this. And so they feel really alone. So a couple things we do
for our clients besides just the educational stuff, are we have a weekly legal abuse support group on Sunday.

Speaker 3 00:17:20
And we do a very unusual thing in the domestic violence space of blending our male and fi female clients together because
we firmly believe that abuse is a human issue. And being in a group of people, it's not a just divorce because Chris and I
exclusively deal with high conflict. So we always say we're, we're very comfortable with chaos. So the stories in that group,
everybody gets it. Like you never need to say, I know this sounds cra everyone's like, oh yeah. So in the group, having that
power of community and, and validation and being around people that are excellent at research, who brings so much to the
group in terms of resources and being around others who are dealing with the same crazy behavior, it's very validating and
it's very comforting. So a lot of times our clients who don't even have anything going on in court, they'll just keep coming
for years because it makes them feel better and they make friends.

Speaker 3 00:18:12
And this is something that they can't talk to other people about. And because we meet only virtually, our clients are all over
the world and so they can connect this way because most of them don't know anyone who's going through something like
this. So that's really helpful. And then the other thing that we do is something called free check-ins as part of a membership
program where we'll say when you've got a question about something, and no offense Steve, but we'll say don't waste $95
asking your lawyers something that's probably not legal. 'cause our clients are not, they're, they, they're dealing with most
of that emotional stuff and they turn to their lawyer for everything. But a lot of the times it's just to clarify something or it's
to vent about something that happened with their ex. So we'll say, just send us off an email.

Speaker 3 00:18:55
Usually if it, it takes just a few minutes or less, we'll write back to you, we'll calm you down and talk you off the ledge. You
don't need to book a whole session and sort of get you through. And if it's a legal issue, we'll say you need to put this on the
list to talk to your lawyer. And so having people in the background is really, really helpful for getting them stronger. So that
along with strategic communication we'll say, so we put 'em as part of the free check-ins, we put 'em on what's called the
permission slip plan. We say, once we teach you how to do strategic communication or you take the course, you can send
us drafts of what you think you wanna say to your ex and we will proofread and edit them for you because we wanna make
sure you have those clean hands.

Speaker 3 00:19:35
But also we know how scared you are of not doing something right and messing up so we, we'll make sure that we do it.
You don't have that burden. And in the process you learn how to do it yourself and it starts making you stronger. And so
that those two things, having the the free check-ins and the weekly support group and then being able to use the sessions
as needed, that really starts to change things. So I love watching the visible transformation in people, even on a camera.
You, in the beginning people are usually talking really, really quickly, looking all over the place, holding their breath, like
really, really freaking out already thinking that they're gonna lose, saying they wanna walk away from their lives because
they can't deal with this. And then, uh, just even over a little bit of time, especially through the strategic communication,
they start calming down.

Speaker 3 00:20:27
Their faces change and we always make sure to note that to them and say, look at the progress you're making. Remember
when you were completely freaked out And that makes them feel good, I think. Oh, and we have, I don't have one with me,
but we have this little, you know, those things outside used cars places, it's like a balloon person. Oh yeah. Yeah. So that's
our symbol of victory and progress over to every time um, someone shares a story like in the support group or with us on a
session, we're like, ah, we got, we need to get balloon man for you. And that's our little woo that you're doing great. I like it.
Yeah. So that, that really helps get people out of that beaten to a pulp or like puddle stage.

Speaker 2 00:21:04
Yeah. Imagine that not just goes for like an attorney or the legal part, but a lot of people when they get in this position just to
get it over with will make bad decisions financially. Oh yeah. Did that sort of come into part of this? Because legally you can do this, but you need to know what it it means financially if you do this and kind of keep your eye on that. Do you work with
them on that?

Speaker 3 00:21:31
Oh yeah. So I mean I'm, I, I'm not a financial professional, but one thing that we focus on with our clients is doing something
called taking strategic oversight of their cases. And we always say you never should approach settlement from a point of
desperation. Yeah. Because it's not gonna stop if you say, I'm gonna trade custody, I'm gonna take no child support. As
long as you gimme the kids, they can go back in a year and a half or two years for a modification and still get the kids and
you're gonna have no money. And so you really need to consider it and then also listen to what your attorney suggests.
Listen to what the financial experts say might be a good deal. But in the end it's your life and it's your family. So you really
need to carefully consider these decisions. What's your best case scenario?

Speaker 3 00:22:16
What's, I'm sure you've heard of the cost benefit analysis. How much money am I gonna spend to get whatever it is I'm
going for? And not just money, but what am I sacrificing? 'cause besides dollars, it's gonna be my peace, my time,
parenting work, my energy that's taking me away from doing things that I love. Like I know my own lawyer said we could
keep going, but it's gonna be another minimum a year of your life of of being in the muck. Do you wanna do that? Do you
wanna take the money that you might not get anyway and invest it into your children's college education or do you wanna
pay for mine? Yeah.

Speaker 2 00:22:52
It's kind of a twisted question. It's, it's important to understand this legal abuse and how it works and how to combat it, but
that doesn't mean to me it feels like don't confuse that with just someone else being aggressive of what they want. They're
kind of two different things. And it's easy sometimes for someone to, especially in an emotional state, to just say, well
they're just doing that because of this. But I, and I imagine people come to you and you say, well hold it. This person isn't
necessarily doing that. I mean, they're not being abusive, but they're also fighting hard for what they think is Right.

Speaker 3 00:23:31
Right. Or they're fighting hard just to keep your attention.

Speaker 2 00:23:34
Yeah,

Speaker 3 00:23:35
That is true. 'cause once it ends it goes away. Yeah. So, so acknowledging that, but also I think it's really important,
especially from a negotiation perspective, is to find out what's important to the other side and to validate that person's
feelings. Even if you hate them, they're still a human being and they have needs. And so we often talk about how to handle
mediation and to <laugh> the very first session, keep your mouth shut. Don't go in saying this is what I want, blah blah blah,
blah. Like just try. There's a lot of, you know, psychological techniques you can use to act to, to do active listening, to pay
attention to give them the mic. I mean people like that want to win. They want people to pay attention to them. So you do it,
but it's a strategy, it's not a weakness, it's that you're doing it because you're gathering intel to think, what can I use to make
sure they feel like they're getting something.

Speaker 3 00:24:31
Yep. So instead of just like, I need this because of whatever, they don't care about what you need, they care about
themselves. So how can we position it so that they feel like they're taking something away from me? So one of our clients
happens to be an attorney. Her ex, um, they, they have a really young son and her ex is extremely irresponsible and has
these crazy stories. Like one time he didn't show up for court and on time and when he got there he told the judge that the
reason he was late was because a squirrel ate the wires to his alarm clock. So he's a little out there and their son needed
some surgery and in the past he had forgotten to give him medication on time. And this was something where if their son
didn't have the medication the night before to prepare for the surgery, he could have gone blind.

Speaker 3 00:25:21

Like it was really, really important that this procedure was followed ahead of time and she knew that her ex wasn't gonna do
it. So she's like, how can I disrupt the schedule? Like I really wanna be the one to have in the night before, otherwise like
terrible things could happen. So we got into what would be some ways to make your ex feel like he was getting something
from it. So we thought about how her ex was a student at the time and that he had to get up early for class. So they met with
a parenting coordinator and she was like, you know, I know how, how hard it is for you to get up early and got all this
pressure with school and our kid has surgery the next morning if you want, I can take him the night before so you can do
what you need to do and not have to worry about anything with him. And her, her ex was like, absolutely, that'd be great. So
she's like, yes, <laugh>. And uh, and he felt good about it. He didn't feel like he was losing, he felt like this was a benefit to
him. So we all celebrated and her son was fine. Luckily.

Speaker 2 00:26:15
Well that just makes such sense 'cause like we said, it's, it's a whole life almost <laugh> afterwards and understanding what
the other person kind of wants and, and at times, you know, doing it because maybe it's the right way to do it and just
because it reduces some of the conflict. I mean that's, that's, that's a great, I love that. That's just terrific. Wow. Okay. This is
ridiculous. We've already blown to our 30 minutes.

Speaker 3 00:26:44
What

Speaker 2 00:26:46
<laugh> and you, I definitely, there's so many topics we could talk about, but that will have to be next time. Sure. But before
we go, I would just like you to reach, to tell people if they wanna reach out to you, what are the best ways they can do that?

Speaker 3 00:27:03
Super easy. So our website is been there, got out.com. My email is Lisa at, been there, got out.com. We're really big on
social media. Our Instagram is been there, got out with little underscores. Our book is called, been There, got Out. Our new
book is also gonna be called Been There, got Out. It has a different subtitle 'cause it's about how to handle when your
externs the kids against you. But just Google been there, got out and you will find us. And it's just my partner, Chris and I,
we always answer ourselves. So anytime reach out.

Speaker 2 00:27:34
I Okay, I now do want to do another one. But because we didn't really talk, it's an entirely different, I mean maybe the same
reasons, but entirely different stuff about, you know, turning the kids against each other. That's just so, it's so awful and it's
so common. So I wanna talk about that later. But I would

Speaker 3 00:27:56
Love to, I've got lots of stuff.

Speaker 2 00:27:58
Oh good. We're out of time. So thank you again for being here to talk about legal abuse and, and you know what to do when
your ex just harasses you through the entire court process and after. So thank you for coming.

Speaker 3 00:28:12
My pleasure, Steve.

Speaker 2 00:28:13
Oh my gosh. And everyone else thank you for joining us today. If there's any further questions on today's topic, you can put
them here. We could get you connected with Lisa. So until next time, stay safe, stay happy, and be well.

Speaker 1 00:28:28
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