What to Do When Co-Parents Don’t Align on How to Support Their Neurodivergent Child

In this podcast episode, we sit down with Psychologist, Tamara Soles, to discuss what to do if you and your co-parent disagree on the best ways to support your neurodivergent child.

If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.

To learn more about how Tamara can help you, you can visit her website at: https://drtamarasoles.com/

Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.

Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you. Covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters, with expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests, we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's your host, Steve Altishin.

Steve Altishin  0:28  
Hi, everyone. I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships here at Pacific Cascade Legal. And today I'm here with Dr. Tamara Soles to talk about what to do when co-parents don't agree on how to support their neuro divergent child. Hey, good morning, Tamara. How you doing?

Tamara Soles  0:51  
Good morning. I'm doing very well. Thank you. How are you?

Steve Altishin  0:54  
I am doing well. It is sunny in Oregon. So it'sgreat.

Tamara Soles  1:00  
Yeah, Montreal too. So we're in good stead here.

Steve Altishin  1:04  
We're both good. So before we started, maybe you can talk a little bit about yourself. And you know why this is such a passionate subject for you?

Tamara Soles  1:14  
Of course. Well, first of all, thank you for having me, it's a pleasure to have this conversation with you today. And I am a child psychologist by training and I run a clinic in Montreal called the secure child center for families and children. And as the name suggests, my focus is really helping families thrive through connection and understanding brain development. And so I work with kids and teens on myriad issues and challenges. But one of the things I really enjoy doing is helping families thrive and to take sort of the day to day stressors out of their lives, and find a way to find a peaceful path forward. And I did my PhD in child clinical psychology and trained at Children's Hospital Los Angeles for my internship and postdoctoral training, where I specialize in early childhood mental health. And from there, I really just wanted to find all these different ways of supporting families to, as I said, thrive in in ways that we often find sort of off the beaten path. So divorce and separation and, you know, helping families navigate such a tricky road is something that I see as a privilege. Because, you know, in the midst of something that is so fraught, and challenging and such a vulnerable time for families, I feel privileged to be able to provide some guidance to support their children and ultimately help their family in these new constitution, find a better path forward. And certainly my passion of supporting neurodivergent families is at the forefront of everything I do. So thank you, as I said, for having me.

Steve Altishin  2:54  
This is wonderful. You're so perfect for this.

Tamara Soles  2:58  
Thank you.

Steve Altishin  2:59  
So I am going to start with sort of the, I don't know, psychology 101 question, which is, what is neurodiversity?

Tamara Soles  3:09  
Yes, it's a great place to start. Neurodiversity really is just a biological fact. It's not a movement or a political statement. It's just a biological fact that says that all of our brains are wired differently. You know, we're wired due to a combination of our genes and our experiences in life. And so each of those things, wires, our brains in unique ways. But for some people, there is a pattern of how their brains are wired, that is more consistent with something that we might see in the world that we associate with a particular condition such as ADHD, autism, giftedness, sensory processing differences, all kinds of things dyspraxia. And so often when we're talking about neurodiversity, we're talking about some of these conditions that share some similarities in terms of what the person experiences and how they move through life, and how their brains are wired. So really, that's what we're talking about that neurodiversity just is this understanding that all brains are wired differently, not better, not worse, each with their own strengths and challenges. And the more that we can understand how to create neurodivergent friendly spaces, we can help everyone thrive and move forward. So that's how I define it. 

Steve Altishin  4:29  
Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah, I gotta tell you, my, my kid when he was in, in school, would take math tests. And they would give him the math test, and he would get it right. But he would never write anything down, or do any of the steps. 

Tamara Soles  4:47  
Yep. I'm very familiar with those kids.

Steve Altishin  4:50  
I really liked that. And that kind of leads into, you know, the importance of understanding your neurodivergent child. I mean, that's good, understanding that is the first step.

Tamara Soles  5:05  
100%. And, you know, that's really tricky, because it's not been that long that we, as a society have been trying to understand neurodiversity. From this perspective, right of the strength based prospective. And for many years, many individuals were not identified as having any particular condition. And so they went under the radar and didn't get supports that they needed. So we really have this somewhat new phenomenon of parents learning what neurodiversity is, how it applies to their family and their child. And one of the really special things I think about working with neurodivergent children is many times, if not, most times, their parents are also neurodivergent in some way, and that hadn't been known to them either. So again, I just feel like this lucky intersection of being able to help parents understand themselves better, and their child better. So you're absolutely right. That's the first step we need to understand what their child's particular strengths and challenges are, and how can we support those.

Steve Altishin  6:13  
And I really love that you brought up its strengths and challenges. I think what this subject is normally talked about, it's about what's wrong? What are the challenges and but there's a ton of strengths that this brings along at home and and in school, and all that kind of stuff? 

Tamara Soles  6:33  
Absolutely, absolutely. And there's so many myths around various conditions, autism being one of the ones that has so many myths around it. And, you know, an example that I often use is that I prefer to think about them as differences rather than deficits, because the deficits are simply based on what a cultural norm, you know, has the standard that a culturally has decided, but there's nothing to say that that standard was better or worse, right, we tend to think about, you know, some habits that many neurodivergent individuals might engage in, which are sort of self calming, and self regulatory movements, for example, so rocking or maybe licking their fingers. And those are seen as they're often seen as things that we should try to stop a person from doing. And yet nobody bats an eyelid at somebody, you know, twirling their hair, or biting their nails, there's nothing different about those, they're just some are seen as more common within society and others are not. But intrinsically, there's nothing different about rocking or twirling or nail biting, I would much rather see somebody rock than hear them bite their nails personally. So it really is shifting this lens away from what's wrong to what's different. And when we understand how these differences impact how an individual moves through the world, meaning how they take in information from their environment, how they learn how they relate to others, we can understand how best to support them, and how to set up their math test so that they aren't penalized for not being able to point out all their steps, for example, just knowing that some people are not going to be able to articulate the steps because that's not how they came to that answer. Right. So it's that recognition of difference, not deficit.

Steve Altishin  8:23  
I love that. Let's talk a little bit then about divorce. And because, you know, a lot of times it's it's the change that can bring on some of these challenges. And and that there's, you know, something that causes change, it's a divorce. And I imagine that that can be very challenging to a neurodivergent child. 

Tamara Soles  8:47  
Yes, absolutely. I mean, first of all, stability is what all of us longed for, and need. So as a basic necessity for for any child, we want to maintain stability as much as possible. That isn't to say that couples should remain in relationships that are not functioning for the sake of stability. But it's to say that we need to be mindful when helping a family move through a separation or divorce, on how to find ways of promoting that stability through that change. And while it's true that that's important for all kids, there are definitely kids who are more vulnerable to feeling the effects of those and neurodivergent children tend to be much more vulnerable to some of those changes. So for instance, somebody who is very routinized, or thrives on routine and structure and predictability, as opposed to somebody who is more flexible in how they move through their day, is going to have a much harder time managing the change in maybe changing housing or where they spend each day or each night or each week. Someone with executive functioning challenges which are common amongst many different kids. machines, including ADHD, for example, might struggle with the fact that some of their clothes are in one home and some of their clothes are another home, and where did I leave my books? And how do I organize all of my stuff? Do I have what I need for school. So all that planning and organization that can already be a challenge for somebody with executive functioning difficulties, is magnified, in a situation like a separation or divorce, where the demands on us in terms of our executive functioning are even greater. So that change really does impact them differentially from many of them? 

Steve Altishin  10:35  
Oh my gosh. And that kind of leads into When? When do you know and maybe never know, but when will get when? Can it be time for maybe some support? Some intervention, some care for the child? 

Speaker 2  10:55  
Yeah, that's a great question. And it's one that I get asked a lot. Thankfully, many parents are very mindful that there could be potential impacts on their child and wanting to kind of get ahead of it, which I think is great. What I always say is, it's not always necessary for a child to receive direct support, some children may need it. But what can be very helpful is just as parents consulting with somebody, whether it's a social worker, or a psychologist or somebody who can just help you navigate, because really, ultimately, it's the parents who are going to enact the things that will provide that stability and that sense of connection and support. So I often start with the parents and say, let's have some meetings and talk about how to navigate this, whether it's how to tell them, whether it's how to prepare them for the change, whether it's how to react to the changes that we would normally expect to see in children, navigating divorce, all of that we can support the parents through. And definitely conflict, which I know we'll get into a little bit more. But again, that's something that we can support the parents through. And if parents are noticing that even with the support and ideas and suggestions and strategies that we talked about, that their child is still struggling in ways, such as impairing their sleep, or having difficulty enjoying the things they normally enjoy, there's any change in their weight, there's change in their appetite, they're not engaging with friends, or teachers notice a change in their attention. Something that is more significantly apparent parent might be a signal that it's you know, we should look into getting some support. Again, it doesn't have to necessarily be long term. But that could be a signal that would be helpful.

Steve Altishin  12:37  
Can that initial sort of reaching out and talking with parents and maybe parents talking with kids, do you need a diagnosis? Do you need an evaluation? Do you need all that stuff to start doing those things?

Tamara Soles  12:51  
Right. Generally not. And again, it depends on where you live, and what the structure of support is. But generally speaking, in the private sector, you wouldn't need any of those things in order to seek support, you could contact a parent coach who was well versed in divorce, even some mediators, depending on where you live, might be well versed in how to help children navigate this child psychologists, you don't need any referral or diagnosis and your child doesn't even have to be struggling. It's simply just a conversation about how do we go about this? And how do we support this, getting it through a public system may be different, of course, depending on where, where you live, but you don't even need to have your child brought into the session. Because I know for many families, that's a barrier, they're worried about having to bring their child to a stranger and what that will mean and all the implications there. And if that's necessary, then we'll work through that. But it's not always necessary. And so I always encourage parents to it's a simple process, for the most part, if you can access somebody, just to consult and how to go through that.

Steve Altishin  13:57  
That kind of leads to the sort of mantra of divorcing parents or people talking to divorced parents, is you have to align that the importance of alignment between co parents is is a very important, which it is. But what does alignment necessarily mean is mean you have to agree on every single thing, is it you just have to agree on stuff that really matters to the candidate. I mean, that that's a term that is that I think, at least is fairly vague. 

Tamara Soles  14:30  
yes, absolutely. And I'm glad you asked if it means that you have to agree on everything because absolutely not right. Alignment really is more big picture. Alignment is more what do we what do we value as parents for our children? What are the things that we hold true and sacred and special as parents for how we want our children to grow and learn? And we may differ in terms of the ways that we get there, but the overall values is where we need the alignment ideally, and And chances are you're not going to agree in all the minutia for divorcing family. The idea of them, you know, disagreeing on things is not that preposterous, right? So we would expect that there are going to be some differences in how they view parenting. But ultimately, if we can get alignment on what the sort of what the mission is here of this team, right, this this, this co parenting team, what are what do we value? And how do we instill that? Then we can work out the minutia along the way.

Steve Altishin  15:30  
And unfortunately, there are still there are blockades to even getting that I mean, yes, especially and especially in divorce, when you're already angry at the other person half the time or three quarters of the time. And, you know, so what are the things that that can really get stuck on that prevent this alignment from happening?

Tamara Soles  15:56  
Yes, it does. Of course, often. We get stuck and not finding that alignment initially, one of the things that I often like to talk to families about is the fact that divorce really is an evolution. And the stage that you're in initially is hopefully not the stage you are in down the road. And so I've seen many couples who have been in very high conflict divorces come to a place where they can be in alignment. So even if you're in that stage right now, it doesn't mean it will stay that way. But you're right, that many of the barriers are just these intense feelings toward their former partner and their CO parent. And they often struggle with separating out their romantic relationship and their, their partnership from their parenting. And so that just bleeds in. And you know, if one parent in particular is angry, or resentful, especially if they feel wronged in some way, sometimes that can trickle into the parenting and even not consciously, and they might not be bad mouthing the other parent expressly, although sometimes they are. But there's just something in how they don't interact with the other that kids notice kids will pick up on like, why do you drop me off in the driveway? Instead of going up to the front door? Why don't you talk to each other, so they can pick up on these subtle things, too. But it's often just this intense emotion that comes from the dissolution of a partnership that just gets in the way. And it's very hard for parents to separate out their own feelings from their parenting. And yes, understandably and, you know, a human reaction, but but very challenging. 

Steve Altishin  17:40  
We see a lot where the parents, they sort of want to find a place to start, but can't find the place to start. And a lot of times it feels like it's like one person said, Okay, this is reached place where we really need professional help. And the other side says, No, Johnny doesn't need professional help. Almost as if that's a, that's a, something bad about them. Like, you know, if Johnny needs professional help, that's something I did wrong to get to this point. 

Speaker 2  18:14  
Yeah, it's so fraught. I mean, there's also I've worked with many families who are still in the midst of all the legal struggles. And so they also feel like they have a vested interest in presenting things in their home a certain way, like they might minimize some of the challenges that they're having, because they want to present as though they're apparent to manage this very differently than the other parent who is being vilified right now. So we have to remember, we have to kind of take everything with a grain of salt, and recognize that when emotions are really high, you know, the information that we're hearing is just one part of the story. Ideally, we can hear from teachers who see things neurone perspective. Ideally, if we get to see a psychologist, if I get to see a child and interact with a child, that also gives me a little tidbit more of information. So we want to kind of remember that everyone has a vested interest. And that vested interest, especially in the beginning isn't always the child, even though they might cognitively say that that is the case. But emotionally, they're still so stuck, that they're actually not centering the needs of the child. And so navigating that as a therapist can be tricky.

Steve Altishin  19:23  
Yeah. And that kind of leads to the headline that we had on this is what can you do without full align if your ex spouse is just not willing, on major or minor parts or whatever to help or to get involved? You still have to try to go forward helping your kid and so I'm assuming I guess I should not assume because I know what that does. That someone can come to you without that the other spouse and say how do I work through this when my other spouse isn't going to You know, what, what can I start to do? What should I be doing? 

Speaker 2  20:03  
Yes, exactly. So that's it. You know, one of the things that I talked to a lot of parents who are struggling with having a partner who's not in alignment or cooperating with them in a way that they would hope is that there is some grief, of letting go of the notion that you have control over what this other person does anymore. As a parent, you really don't, and short of anything significantly abusive, traumatizing or harmful, you don't have control over how much screen time the other parent gives how much candy or sugar. And it can be really hard for parents to realize that half the time or whatever proportion of time, they no longer have a say and how their child navigates that day to day. And so but there has to be that acknowledgement, because I think many parents struggle with letting go of that piece. And so they end up in these conflict situations, because one is trying to still manage the others parenting.

Steve Altishin  20:59  
When other people are in conflict, nd especially like I say, high conflict, but even in conflict, that gets to the stability, because like you were saying stability is a big, big thing that that's needed and how, you know, how can one person put stability into their child's routine without the other person, there's got to be some way to try to do that.

Tamara Soles  21:25  
Right? When I think so ultimately, when I help a parent see that maybe in this case, we're not at the stage of collaboration and alignment that we would wish. And we accept that it's hard to accept, but we accept that. And there's some grief, like I said, that goes along with that. But then we can focus on what do we have control over and recognize that what we still have control over is still a whole heck of a lot and still very meaningful and impactful for a child. So even if it's 30% of the time, or whatever the percentage is, having something consistent and rooted for that portion of time still is very impactful, and can negate a lot of potential challenges and impacts. So when we focus on our own, you know, and our own stuff, and our own home and our own parenting, and we allow that to be what drives us forward. Number one that helps provide the stability for the child. And number two, often that does lessen some of the intense emotion that might open the door for collaboration down the road, if one parent isn't feeling sort of attacked all the time, or questioned all the time. So we just focus on how do we help you build that consistency as much as possible? How do we help you understand that may be when the child comes back to you, they're going to need a whole lot of just support and decompressing from just that transition alone potentially, or whatever is happening another home. So how do we set you up to be that safe base, right, that safe? Harbor, right, which is really the crux of attachment, right attachment doesn't mean they're with you all the time attachment means they go out into the world and experience things, some are positive, some are not, but then they have that to come back to. So in that case, when you don't have alignment, you still can foster that safe base from which your child moves. So you can then help them process the things that happen in the other home. That's a whole other conversation and how much you can do that or how and why. But you can be that you know, safe person for them. You can help them decompress, you can help them understand why transitions are hard for them and offer that compassion curiosity about what it's like for them what their experience is like, and have that routine and sort of soft structure that a child needs. So there's a lot that we have control over even if we don't have alignment. And again, I just come back to this notion of we may not have alignment right now. But that doesn't mean that we can't get there down the road. 

Steve Altishin  23:57  
I love that because we see that a lot where I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this, but it gets done. And often it's the person who's really driving it is also has some custody and can make some things happen, which help and but after a while when they see improvement, or they see a change or they just start to go okay, this isn't so bad. This isn't so bad. This isn't so bad. So it's like little victories baby steps, sometimes it feels like.

Tamara Soles  24:28  
Yes, that's that. You know, we know from the research that the the biggest impacts from divorce don't come from the dissolution of the marriage as much as it comes from the conflict that occurs in the process. And so when we can try to shift away from that conflict and just kind of focus on the stuff that we have control over, that can really benefit our child. And in particular, as I said, understanding how for a neurodivergent child, we need to shift things in the environment that they might be particular really sensitive to, to help support them through that, again, that's paramount for those kids as well.

Steve Altishin  25:06  
That even kind of goes to their school stuff. 

Tamara Soles  25:09  
100% Yes, yeah. 

Steve Altishin  25:11  
I'm imagining that even again, without total Alliance, there's things you can do through your school, that can help.

Speaker 2  25:21  
Absolutely, you know, making teachers aware that your child is going through, you know, this change and your family is navigating this change, and can they keep an eye out or even fostering added connection time maybe having special one on one time with a teacher, they really like weekly identifying somebody in the school like a counselor that they can speak to, and inviting them to take advantage of that if they need to, and just recognizing that it might impact their attention for a while, or their organization, again, as I said, you know, papers being sent to one home or another. So just recognizing and having those conversations with the school so that you can partner together is important. 

Steve Altishin  25:59  
Yeah, and then you can sort of, I mean, it feels to me like be don't call it a referee. That's not quite right. But there's you someone may be going to you may be speaking with their teacher may be speaking with a, a behavioral end analysts or something like that. And it feels like someone needs to be there to have the alignment between the professionals, because sometimes that does that breaks down.

Tamara Soles  26:29  
Yes, it's very true. And, you know, it gets tricky, as I know, you're familiar with in the legal world, that gets tricky when we're serving a role as a therapist, and then people try to bring you in, in different roles. And that gets complicated. But it is tricky. But we do need to have, you know, as much as possible, I always try to think of it as a team, right? Whether it's school, parent, child, and, and professional, there needs to be a team, that's all centering the child's needs, and in communication as much as possible.

Steve Altishin  27:01  
If they don't know what the other one is doing, then they it's hard to do that. 

Tamara Soles  27:04  
100%, yeah.

Steve Altishin  27:07  
I like that. God, we've just blew through this time. We're gonna do another.

Tamara Soles  27:15  
Sounds great, there's so much more we can talk about.

Steve Altishin  27:18  
There's so much to talk about. Just, you know, one of the things that we didn't hit because I knew it wasn't going to work, are just working with the school. Yeah, and this thing out there called an IEP that people kind of go, what the heck. So we will come back. But before we go, before I say thank you, is there something we didn't hit, or just something that if you go away from anything today,go away with thi?

Tamara Soles  27:53  
Great question. All of my work is guided by compassion and curiosity. And I think that if parents can remember those two C's, the compassion and curiosity, it helps a lot because they're going to need it themselves through this process, right, they're gonna mess up, they're gonna make mistakes we all do. And especially when we're in highly emotional situations, we're not going to follow everything to the tee that we wish we would. So extend yourself compassion as you go through because you're evolving to in this process, and you're reconstituting what family means for you, and extend your child some compassion, because you're going to see changes in behavior and emotions and so on. And just get curious about why you're reacting the way you are, why your child's reacting the way you are. And if you can center those things, then I think it keeps the focus in the right place, and helps everyone move forward.

Steve Altishin  28:46  
I love that there's an old science fiction movie that I love. And one of the characters goes when it's tough time goes, never give up. Never surrender. 

Tamara Soles  28:56  
Yes, exactly. 

Steve Altishin  28:58  
So thank you so much. Before we go, though, again, how can people get a hold of you if they need to? 

Speaker 2  29:03  
Oh absolutely. They can visit my website, which is Drtamarasoles.com. So DR, Drtamarasoles.com. And all of my contact information is there and all my socials and all that good stuff.

Steve Altishin  29:15  
Thank you. All right. Again, Tamara, thank you for doing this today. 

Speaker 2  29:20  
It has been my pleasure. Yeah, thank you for having me.

Steve Altishin  29:24  
We will have you again. So this was great insight that people-- you made it in a way that I could understand. And so that's a that's a great thing to do. And everyone else I want to thank you for joining us today. Of course if anyone has any further questions, you can hit us up. We can get you connected with Tamara. And in any case, everyone stay happy, stay healthy, and be happy and have a great day.

Outro:
This has been Modern Family Matters, a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Pacific Cascade Legal, serving families in Oregon and Washington. If you are in need of legal counsel or have additional questions about a family law matter important to you, please visit our websites at pacificcascadelegal.com or pacificcascadefamilylaw.com. You can also call our headquarters at (503) 227-0200 to schedule a case evaluation with one of our seasoned attorneys. Modern Family Matters, advocating for your better tomorrow and offering legal solutions important to the modern family.