Divorced but Still Dad – The Importance of Being an Engaged Father & Co-Parent

We sit down with Rev. Dr. Ken J. Gordon, Jr to discuss the faith principles of fatherhood for divorced men, and the importance of being an engaged co-parent as a means of protecting and supporting children. In this interview, Ken covers the following:

•    Why a divorce doesn’t sever your father-child relationship.
 •    How to be an engaged, and not just present, for you children.
 •    Why amicable co-parenting is vital for all children impacted by divorce.
 •    Fathers who do not engage with their children do damage that lasts a lifetime.
 •    Faith principles and commonsense realities of fatherhood for divorced men.
 •    Understanding the psyche of men and their often-unspoken perspectives on fatherhood and responsibility.
 •    …and much more!

If you would like to speak with one of our family law attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.

If you're interested in getting in touch with Ken, you can do so by emailing him at kgordonjr66@gmail.com, or you can continue learning via his book: Divorced, But Still Dad: The Faith Principles of Fatherhood for Divorced Men.

Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.

Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you. Covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters, with expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests, we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's your host, Steve Altishin.

Steve Altishin  0:01  
Hi, everyone. I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships here at Pacific Cascade Legal. And today I'm here with Author and Reverend Dr. Ken J. Gordon Jr. to discuss the power of an engaged father in a child's life after divorce. Hey, Ken, how you doing today?

Ken Gordon  0:51  
I'm doing great. How are you today, Steve?

Steve Altishin  0:53  
I'm doing well today, really good. So before we start, I always like to just ask, tell us a little bit about yourself, you know, kind of what got you on your journey to where you are now?

Ken Gordon  1:07  
Yeah, so I will tell you that the first thing I like to always open with is that I'm not a subject matter expert. The reason I've written the books and the reason that I, you know, speak and everything and do everything I do is because I fail forward so much. So that's the biggest thing I want everyone to know is that, you know, I've made a lot of mistakes. And my goal is to help people not make the mistakes I did, or if they're already there, to kind of pull themselves out of it before they get too far down the road. 

Steve Altishin  1:35  
I love it, I love it. So one of your books really had an intriguing name, and it's Divorced, but Still Dad, the Faith Principles of Fatherhood for Divorced Men. And I mean, there's a lot to break down just from that title. But the first one is, divorced but still dad, I saw that and I thought, 'Well that's obvious', you know, but then I kind of thought, you know, it's not just that. There's more to it than just that, isn't there?

Ken Gordon  2:08  
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's funny, because if you really wanted to make the title like correct, in a lot of cases, it would it would say Divorced, but Still Have Children, or Divorced, but I Have Kids. But what I really wanted to focus on is there's a difference between a father and a dad, there's a difference between the man in the house or the head of the house and a dad. A dad is someone who knows his children, who engages with them, who has fun with them, who plants seeds in their lives that grow and blossom into great memories. And so Divorced but Still Dad was a way of saying, hey, just because you get divorced, you still have to be a dad, not just a man, not just a child support provider, but you've got to be a dad.

Steve Altishin  2:52  
That makes sense. And we actually have a lot of clients, a lot of men, who struggle with that during a divorce. That being a dad because, you know, divorce changes the physical landscape around. 

Ken Gordon  3:08  
Yes, yeah. 

Steve Altishin  3:10  
But how, you know, how can they get around that with different residences and still be dad?

Ken Gordon  3:17  
Yeah, I will tell you that it's one word. It's intentionality. You have to go into the divorce understanding that yes, you and your soon to be ex spouse are kind of walking down this road, but so are your children. And the way that I really see things is your children are your greatest legacy. And so you owe it to them to be intentional, about remaining engaged, about remaining in their lives, about making sure that everything you do is about them, not about your bank account, not about your pride, not about being vindictive, but it's about your children. If you keep your children as the main thing, then I promise you being intentional is not going to be difficult.

Steve Altishin  4:02  
You obviously are a Reverend, we talked about that, and you bring that to the table when you talk with people. And I think I was listening to something of yours, and you said you have the the biblical and common sense. And I love that. It's that, you know, growing up as an old Catholic, it was like, you know, it's faith and works, and so that common sense thing really is also strong. And so it's not easy for dads. So what kinds of things can and should they do?

Ken Gordon  4:41  
Yeah, and you know, it's not easy, and that's what really kind of launched me on this journey is because I am a man of faith. And in the church, divorce is not supposed to happen. And so a lot of divorced people, you know, wear this red D on their chest all around, and it can be sometimes discouraging, sometimes embarrassing. But I was questioning and I'm saying, How do I go through divorce in a way that's real, but also honors God? Because here I am, a man of the cloth here. I am a minister, but I hate her. I hate her. I don't want her to get my barbecue grill, my Big Green Egg. She doesn't deserve that, all the artwork. So what do I do about that? There were books that I saw out there by people who were psychologists and people who were psychiatrists, etc. Okay, but I'm a man of the cloth. Okay, there's a different dynamic. Then there were people out there that you know, were like megachurch pastors who have never been divorced. Okay, you're a man of the cloth, but you don't know what it feels like to have to love everyone but I hate that person. I hate him. I hate her. So what does that look like? And that's what really drove me down a journey of writing it. But when I got ready to write it, I didn't want to make it a religious book. I didn't want to make it a Bible. I wanted to make it something that was real, that really could help people identify because they're like, Yeah, I know what that feels like. And so I said, What can I use as a guide? Well, I'm going to use as a guide the Bible, because it just like some people use USA Today, or some people use, you know, the London Times, or whatever it is, to get their information and to kind of inform their decisions. I think I'm going to use this old book that's been around for 2,000 years. But I say early in the book, Look, if you don't accept it, if you don't believe in it, if you don't like it, that's great. Then just throw it out the window, and just listen to some of what I have to say and go from there. But I think at the end of the day, for me, it was just really a matter of, what are the real principles that I'm really dealing with that really speak to who I am? And I think what that really means is, how do I deal with my children? How do I deal with their mother? How do I deal with my life after my children? And how do I compartmentalize all of this in a way that doesn't make me bitter, but it makes me better?

Steve Altishin  7:02  
Okay, three things on that: dealing with the ex spouse, dealing with kids, and then dealing with yourself after divorce. The kids, they get caught up in this. And I know that you've talked about that being something that you really need to try to avoid. Because anytime- I think I've heard you say- that when you speak badly about your spouse to the kids, they hear it differently. 

Ken Gordon  7:35  
They do.

Steve Altishin  7:35  
Can you talk about that a little?

Ken Gordon  7:36  
They do, they do. The thing that I remind everyone is that our children, they are 50% of me and 50% of their mother, they are 50% of you or 50% of their father, like it or not, it is what it is. And so when you talk bad about that ex, about their father, about their mother, what you're in essence doing is you're telling them that 50% of who they are is not good. You're actually saying: you are terrible, you are a deadbeat, you're a cheater, you're a liar, you're this, you're that. And you're like No, no, no, I'm saying that about their father. No, you're saying it about half of who they are. And so if you keep that in mind when you are talking with your children about your ex or soon to be ex, then you will modulate your language. And you will be careful of what you say, because our children are made up of, their self esteem comes from, who they see in their lives as their influencers, and children see their parents as their nearest influencers.

Steve Altishin  8:38  
You also talked about a word that doesn't get used a lot in divorce and co-parenting, and it's amicable, and really stressing that. In fact, I think you said it's vital for the children again, and they do that, sometimes that's tough, because sometimes the other side isn't amicable. How can a father deal with that?

Ken Gordon  9:01  
Yeah, just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not necessary. And just because it's hard, doesn't mean it's not possible. And so when I started off my divorce, I started off like a lot of men, I hunkered down, I went and got the best attorney I could find. I actually went looking for an attorney that specializes in representing men. I went around my house putting sticky notes on the things that I refused to let go of, you're not getting this, you're not getting that. But after a little while, I understood that this war that I was entering into was going to have casualties, and the casualties are going to be my children. And so it became important, imperative, vital to me that I figure out a way to make it amicable. And the reason I had to is because of the collateral damage. I wasn't willing to accept the collateral damage. So I'm not telling you it's easy. But I sat down with my ex and I said we can give all of our money to attorneys or we can give our money to our children. We can spend all of our time fighting, and then our children become the collateral damage. Or we can figure out a way, as adults, to make this work. What I tell most men is the thing that you must remember is that many women, and forgive me, I'm going to paint with a very broad brush here, and if this is not some of your listeners, that's fine. But many women are driven by security, that's what's important to them is the need for security. If that soon to be ex is not behaving or not amicable or is upset and angry, it's probably because number one, she's hurting badly, or he's hurting badly over what you did and how you treated them. Or two, there's not a sense that you're going to honor your commitments, and you're going to secure them in the way that you're supposed to, that you should. And so I believe that if you can communicate to that person, that you know what, I am going to pay child support, I am going to pay it on time, I am going to be here for the children, I am going to be here to take them to their baseball practice, to their cheerleading events, or whatever it is, if you can convince them that you're not going to all of a sudden become a phantom, or the Invisible Man, then generally the relationship changes right there, and I believe it can.

Steve Altishin  11:15  
you talk about and you talked about earlier, you learn this the hard way? Yes. And I think you told me at one point that you decided at that point to be more of an a more evolved at least more as much with your kid and stay close. Yeah, even physically. And even you moved close. I mean, that's fascinating.

Ken Gordon  11:40  
When divorce came to my door, what I knew is I knew I wanted to be a dad, I wasn't done being a dad, I was divorcing, but I wasn't done being a dad. And so what that meant to me is proximity matters. I had jobs that I could have taken in different states. But proximity mattered relationship with my children mattered. Seeing them and being a part of their life mattered. And so I purchased the house three blocks away from where we were living when you know, their mother and me were married. Because I wanted to be close to them, I needed to be near to them. Because I didn't want being a dad to be words, I wanted it to be actions, it was so important to me, as a matter of fact that not only did I purchase a house three blocks away, but I needed the house to be smaller than the ones that the one that they were living in, I needed for the flat screen TV to be smaller than the one they had. Because what I did not want is I did not want my children to come to my house and see that I was living better without them than I was with them. Because those kinds of things affect the psyche, and they matter.

Steve Altishin  12:45  
It's amazing the things that kids absorb. Yeah, and I probably will get this wrong. catechism was a tough time. But But I remember learning and it was like, is it the is it the the fruit of the seeds? And it's kind of like going forward, or still planting seeds and bearing fruit, you're not stopping. And so you don't divorce doesn't end at the divorce decree?

Ken Gordon  13:20  
Right. Right. Yeah, and we have to remember that our children are the seeds that when harvested will give us our legacy. And they will allow this world to go on and be a better place, hopefully, for them and everyone around them. And you have to sow your seeds. And you have to remember that the seeds that you have sown, are so much about who we are. And what that means to me is when you sow seeds into your children that produce bitter fruit, then your children then have negative relationships. They have a negative outlook on life, they have a negative relationship even with you. When divorce first came to my door, for the first three or four months, my children wouldn't even speak to me, they refuse to come to my house, they wouldn't even speak to me. And the reason was because they believed everything that they had heard, they believed everything that a hurting parent told them about the other parent, and my family was pleading with me, please talk to your children and give them your truth. Tell them it's not true. And I said I won't. I won't. Because number one, I need to allow them to be children. I'm not going to bring adult themes and put them onto children's minds. And so the time will come when they will understand. But I'm not going to tell them that because I need them to to enjoy being children and to remain there. And eventually they saw even you know my daughter said to me one day she said, I really wish that you would have told me that it wasn't true. Because your silence admit to me that it was all true, she says but I'm so glad you didn't do that. I'm so glad you let me be a child because eventually I did see that it was alive. Ice. And I think that's so critical.

Steve Altishin  15:02  
I kind of like that moving into the future. It's tough. If you're just by yourself to I mean, it's harder to do it alone. Is there other ways to kind of get some support?

Ken Gordon  15:18  
Well, so a couple of things about that. So the first one is the obvious question is, some people go looking after divorce to another person, to console them to comfort them. And you know, one of the things I talk about is this concept of hide and seek, I think it's critical in the development of your children that they don't see you come straight out of a marriage, and jump right into a relationship. And what's even worse is if you come out of a marriage, and jump into multiple relationships, because remember, their self esteem is tied to you and your actions. And so you need to hide your relationships from your children, until the time comes that you're either very serious about a person, or until your children have matured to a point where they can understand who you really are as a person. And I think that's critical. But the other thing that I think is critical when you talk about support and doing it alone, is therapy, clinical therapy. I'm a pastor and I get the luxury because I am a pastor to say what I'm about to say, because I have a PhD in counseling, I have a doctorate in communications, and I pastor a church, one of the worst mistakes that many people make is going to their pastor for therapy. When things like this happen, I understand that you know, what, if there's something in your spiritual life that you need, you know, guidance on from your pastor great. But there are a lot of issues which require real clinical therapy from from people who are clinically trained. And this is what they do. That's what I went to, that's what I made sure my children went to. And I would say to everyone, that's the support, that's where you get your support, you don't get your support from the gym, you don't get your support from a bar, you don't get your support from these other temporary kinds of things. You get your support from learning from your mistakes, because here's the thing, in every divorce, there's not one person that's 100% responsible, all of us can look at ourselves and learn and do better. And the way to really get the support is to get a clinical therapist, and to really understand why things evolved the way they did and what you could have done differently or better, if anything, and at what point.

Steve Altishin  17:31  
This is all really, like you said it's common sense. real stuff. Yeah. But I also want to kind of go back because we talked a little bit about what I would call the shame of divorce. Yep. And how that's very real thing. And the other and this leads to me, I think, to the other part of your book, the other part of the name, and that is the the biblical and common sense realities that every man should adopt. And could you go through a couple, I mean, you know, one of the things that a lot of people are afraid to do is to spear faith based things, because between you and me, a lot of people have weaponized, that on both ends. So now it's like, Oh, don't tell me that because that's, you know, Tinder but it's fun to silly Tinder, because, you know, there was the wisdom of the ages in this stuff. So, could you kind of go through a couple of the ones that, you know, if I walk in and didn't start to talk to you, you might you may say, Well, this is what the Bible says in isn't what they're talking about.

Ken Gordon  18:38  
Yeah, I'll direct this to the man because this is really directed at what men need to do as dads. There's a principle you know, that I talk about protector, provider and priest. These are biblical terms. These are biblical kind of, of a harvest something I get from there. But but here's the thing. What I say is that, as a man, as a man, I believe God has called us to be protected provider and priests. But here's what that means. He calls you to be a protector. But being a protector doesn't always mean protecting your family from everything outside. A lot of times, being a protector means protecting your family from you. Protecting your family from your moods protecting your family from your callousness or your coldness or your lack of communication or your aloofness. Sometimes as men, we are not as touchy feely and we're not as tuned into our emotions and so we come across as cold and and unattached and detached. Being a protector means understanding that that can be the case and learning to soften when it is necessary for your children and for your family provider is not just providing bringing home the bacon. It's not just going out and working 80 hours a week is not just getting out and doing all of that. But providing also means providing love providing self esteem, providing validation. And so we often don't We're looking at when we think, Oh, my provider only halfway, because you're only bringing home money, but what are you doing about their emotional support, you got to provide for that as well. And then finally, a priest means you got to have a relationship with with a higher power called the name, whatever you want to call it, whoever you pray to, it doesn't matter. But having a higher power, someone that gives you hope, is important for all of us, and centering ourselves and having that foundation. And that doesn't mean sending your children to church or to the synagogue or you know, the mosque, it means taking them, it means living a life that is principled, it means being better today than you were yesterday. So these are principles behind the faith principles that are important because too many times in our relationships, we forget that we are supposed to be a protector provider and priests. And that just doesn't mean external facing, but it means internal as well.

Steve Altishin  20:57  
And that gets run one thing I was wondering about that you had the talk about the engaged father. Yes. And the importance of that. And what it to me, it comes up what's coming up is that you've remained in close contact, and and don't change your father's with your kids. I mean, yeah, that just has to keep going. I imagine. I mean, it's that that engagement with the kids seems to me to be super important.

Ken Gordon  21:31  
It is and I will tell you that what what I take from being engaged is I get so tired of hearing people talk about men who are present in the household, or what how many households had it had a dad who was present, who cares if he was present if he was on his cell phone the whole time? Who cares if he's present if he's on his Gameboy or his Nintendo or has a remote and he's sitting in his comfy chair and looking at TV the entire time. Being present means nothing. Being engaged, is what children need is what the family needs. Being engaged means knowing your children, and not just knowing that you have children. Do you know your children's friends? Do you know their favorite music? Do you know their hopes and their fears? Do you know where they want to be? Not what you want them to be not creating a NEMA mini me, but actually who they really are and what they really want to be? That is an engaged dad who really knows his children. And again, not just knows that he happens to have children?

Steve Altishin  22:25  
Well, unfortunately, we are, again, zipping through our 30 minutes. Before it's fascinating and useful and should be heard. So before we do come to a final conclusion. Is there something we didn't talk about? Or maybe a I wish you had asked me that question? Or? Or a last sort of thing you would like fathers dads to take away? And and the other thing is, I shouldn't say this book isn't just for dads, is it?

Ken Gordon  23:01  
No, no, not at all. So two answers to your questions very quickly. It's not just for dad. And you know, my wife, Leslie, and I is my wife and I'm married to now. She says to me all the time, you should change the title. Because there are a lot of women who could really benefit from reading this book to really understand how men think and really understand where the bar should be set to be a man Leslie wrote the foreword in the book to talk about, hey, if you're dating a man who's divorced, these are red flags you need to look for my daughter wrote, you know, a chapter in the book to say, hey, if you're a parent going through divorce, especially a dad, here's how children feel when it comes to their doorstep. So no, it's not just for dads, but it really can give you insight into that. And as far as what I wish you would have asked me first of all, Steve, you've been amazing. You've asked me some really great questions. The only thing I would say is that for all the men out there, I would just remind you of your legacy. I don't know of any men who don't love their children. I just don't. We love our children. And many of us are willing to do the hard work that it takes to make sure they're good. And I would say to you if you stay engaged in spite of difficulty in spite of hurt or pain, or animosity or or any of if you can stay engaged, then you know what your children will be better for it.

Steve Altishin  24:17  
And that's for the whole time. I mean, how old? How old is your daughter now?

Ken Gordon  24:22  
24. Yeah,

Steve Altishin  24:24  
it doesn't stop. No, no, that's the one thing I've learned. My kids are in their 30s and their kids and I'm deaf.

Ken Gordon  24:34  
My daughter wrote the chapter in the book when she was 12. She's 24 now and just this morning, I'm texting her giving her advice on what kind of a laptop she needs for her college work. So it doesn't stop. And because I've left the right legacy, it can continue the way it should.

Steve Altishin  24:49  
Right, right. Oh my gosh, that this was wonderful. I really, really want to thank you for doing this. What I really love about you was you bring this depth, advice and knowledge. But it's clear, it's understandable that people like me.

Ken Gordon  25:09  
Well, I'm glad Thank you.

Steve Altishin  25:11  
But before we go, then people who want to maybe learn more or get in contact with you, how can they do that?

Ken Gordon  25:18  
So I have a website called dads of faith, dads of faith. And that tells a lot about really the message that I want to give to men to encourage them and to get them to lean into fatherhood. And then it shares about you know, the books that I have and contact information, etc. But dads of faith is how they would do it.

Steve Altishin  25:36  
I love it. I love it. And you wrote some other books. I did. In fact, are you writing a series?

Ken Gordon  25:42  
I am writing a children's series on engaged dads as it were.

Steve Altishin  25:46  
I love it. I love it. I'm definitely going to be the first one. I think it's like pancake dad,

Ken Gordon  25:51  
and ice cream dad just came out two weeks ago.

Steve Altishin  25:56  
You not love that. Well, thank you again for being here today. My pleasure. And everyone else. Thank you for joining us. And if anyone has any further questions on today's topic, you can post it here and we can help you get connected to Ken or he just gives you some stuff but in any case, until next time, stay safe, stay happy and be well.

Outro:
This has been Modern Family Matters, a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Landerholm Family Law and Pacific Cascade Family Law, serving families in Oregon and Washington. If you are in need of legal counsel or have additional questions about a family law matter important to you, please visit our websites at landerholmlaw.com or pacificcascadefamilylaw.com. You can also call our headquarters at (503) 227-0200 to schedule a case evaluation with one of our seasoned attorneys. Modern Family Matters, advocating for your better tomorrow and offering legal solutions important to the modern family.