How Co-Parents Can Utilize Sleep Science to Help A Child Struggling to Sleep in Two Households

We sit down with Pediatric Sleep Consultant, Marie-Eve Gagnon, to discuss factors that can result in sleep challenges for children, and how co-parents can work together across households to create environments that support healthy sleep patterns. In this interview, Marie-Eve and Steve discuss the following:

•    Why do children have problems falling asleep or staying asleep in two households?
 •    How can coparents go about addressing their kid’s sleeping routine now that there will be two places where the kid sleeps?
 •    What should coparents consider when setting up a sleep environment in each home? 
 •    Is it necessary for each home to have the exact same bedtime systems in order to create a cohesive environment?
 •    How can you support your child during your visitation if they’re missing their other parent?
 •    Is it a hopeless cause if your co-parent won’t get on the same page about creating a cohesive environment and sleep routine?
 •    How do co-parents deal with the lack of routine and upended sleep schedules during holidays or vacations? 
•    ...and much more!

If you would like to speak with one of our family law attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.landerholmlaw.com.

To learn more about Marie-Eve and the services she offers families in need of sleep support and guidance, you can visit her website: https://www.slumbertimesolutions.com/ or visit her Facebook page at Slumber Time Solutions

Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.

Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you. Covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters, with expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests, we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's your host, Steve Altishin.

Steve Altishin  0:31  
Hi, everyone. I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships here at Pacific Cascade Family Law, and today I'm here with sleep trainer, Marie Eve Gagnon, to talk about some solutions for co-parents whose children are struggling sleeping in two households. So Marie-Eve, before we start, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, and maybe also talk a little bit about what sleep training is for folks who haven't heard of it?

Marie-Eve Gagnon  1:00  
Yeah, and not everybody's heard of that. So yes, I'm Marie Eve, I am a sleep coach. And I help families who are struggling with sleep. I'm a pediatric sleep coach. So I work with families who have kiddos, zero to 10 years old, and it's about figuring out sleep. If families are tired because kids are not sleeping well, then we can help find solutions to help everybody sleep better. That can look like kiddos who wake up in the middle of the night, or wake up too early, or stall at bedtime. Children who have anxiety around sleep or who have nightmares, naps, transitions, moving to a new house, right, so anything that can affect sleep. Anytime sleep is challenging, that's something that I can come in, and I work one on one with families. And we come up with a plan and some steps to help them sort of achieve those goals and get everybody the sleep they need.

Steve Altishin  1:56  
That sounds fascinating. It really does. So let's start with looking at what sorts of things might lead to children having problems falling asleep, especially when after a divorce, they have to be living in two households.

Marie-Eve Gagnon  2:13  
Yes, yeah. So there are a few sort of factors, I guess a few pieces that I see more frequently, where we see some issues or some struggles come up. The first one has to do with environment. So now we're talking about two homes, two sleep spaces. And we do want these spaces and environments to be conducive to sleep. And so one other thing we want to think about is  what is the environment? What was the environment prior? And what it is now? And can they be similar? So what I'm talking about is not having like matching bed covers, or pretty bedrooms, but some of the elements that actually help with sleep, such as having a dark room, or having a nightlight if you know your child needs a little bit of light, or a sound machine. If your kiddo is used to sleeping with a sound machine at one home, can we make sure we also provide that tool for them at both homes? Or like a blanket, if they have a lovey that they like, make sure we take that with us. So the elements that sort of help with sleep, those are the elements that we want to think about being able to provide for the kiddo in both homes,

Steve Altishin  3:26  
It sounds like you're not necessarily saying things have to match up exactly, but you just reduce the strangeness of the new environment.

Marie-Eve Gagnon  3:34  
Yes, exactly. So there are some things, you know, even as adults--I like a certain light, right, or I like a certain way--and those are the things that we want to just set our kiddo up to be successful to make them as comfortable as possible. It's just kind of good to think about what are some of these elements that are helpful, and make sure that we provide those elements in both houses.

Steve Altishin  3:55  
But that doesn't mean, I would assume, necessarily having to buy two things for each household. There are some things I can see where it's pretty easy to buy two, and they're pretty much the same, and it makes them similar. But you know, what about some of the things that aren't necessarily--

Marie-Eve Gagnon  4:13  
They're unique! Yes, yes. So once again, if we're talking about that nightlight, hopefully we can find one, you put it in the wall, we're done. We don't need to think about it. But there are often a few unique items that we kind of need to move home to home. If there's a lovey, a little special stuffed animal that child likes to sleep with, and there's only one of them in the world, then that could be something that we want to take back and forth. So I like to have a sleep bag, like a dedicated bag that we will use between both homes and just be like, okay, in here, we put the objects that you want to take with you and then we bring it back and forth and just make sure that we don't forget! We make sure that we check in at pick up or drop off that we have what we need. Maybe there's a favorite pajama and they're really into right now and they want to have, or they want to have or a blanket, or once again, a stuffed animal that they like, or a particular book that they want to read, right? Those are the kind of things that we put in this bag that goes back and forth.

Steve Altishin  5:11  
Makes complete sense. In addition to environment and trying to keep it at least similar and comfortable, what are some of the other factors that can come in?

Marie-Eve Gagnon  5:22  
Yeah, so the other thing that we see a little bit at bedtime is is missing the other parent. So bedtime, at the end of the day, we're tired, sometimes a little bit more vulnerable, and so that tends to be a time where kiddos can sort of miss the other parent. And if that's something that tends to happen frequently, then we want to think about, Okay, how are we going to help the child cope? Like how are we going to, what are some tools or structures that we can put around them that will help the kiddo with that? For some families that can look like setting up a phone call. So in the evening or around dinner, we're going to call the other parents just to have that opportunity to connect with the other parent. And for some, that works great. For other kiddos, I found that it doesn't work, it reminds them that they're not with that parent, and it makes it worse. So that's a tool that can be helpful or not. We can also do things like putting pictures of the family by the bed where their head would be, or creating a little book that, once again, might be a book that goes back and forth. That little book that has like, this is my home, this is my mom, this is my dad, this is my cat; just kind of putting it in a special book with some special pictures or special objects or people in the child's life that he can take with them. And then when they feel lonely, or they miss a parent, they can look at that book. We can record the voice; for some families, we have a parent record a story, and then the child can listen to that story. We can read books around kind of separation and being away that can help as well. So there are lots of things that we can explore to try to sort of help the child kind of feel that need, right, that emotional need of, I'd like to connect with my other parent right now.

Steve Altishin  7:07  
Two things strike me when you say this. The first is that we're not necessarily talking about just doing things, you know, after you've tucked the kid in. I mean, there's processes that are even earlier in the evening a little bit that sort of helps set it up. And the second is that not everything works for everybody. And so this really is a work through to find out what works best kind of thing. 

Marie-Eve Gagnon  7:37  
Yeah. So when it comes to sleep, there's not one way to sleep. There's not one tool that works. And it's really often a bit of like you're saying, iterations of figuring out what is going to work for this child, right? Like, what is the tool that they connect with that they respond to? So yeah, so there's often a few ways to do this. And I don't suggest that you do all of them, I suggest that you do try until you pick one that seems to work for your family, for your child.

Steve Altishin  8:03  
It kind of leads to the environment, and it kind of sounds like you're trying to set up a routine that's comfortable.

Marie-Eve Gagnon  8:14  
Right, yes, absolutely. And that is something else that we want to sort of align on as much as possible in some of the big things, right? So when it comes to sleep, in general, sleep works well with predictability and consistency. And so when we do the same things around the same time every night, that tends to tell our body that it's time to sleep and to wind down. And so as much as possible between the two homes, if we can align on the on the main parts of sleep, not you know, I read a book and you sing a song, but things like timing of bedtime. So timing of bedtime, timing of wakeup time, do we take naps? Some of those major or more foundational pieces that deal with sleep. So in general, as humans,  there's lots of research that shows that we do sleep better if we go to bed around the same time, and ake up around the same time. So our bodies, our internal clock, does sort of better with that. So that's the kind of thing that if between the two homes, we can align on those things that can make it easier for the child to be like, Yep, my body knows it's eight o'clock, that's typically when I go to sleep and that's consistent. So things like that can be helpful.

Steve Altishin  9:31  
You were talking about naptime. And it made me think also, it's not just little kids who have problems, is it? I mean, can this be a problem for kids as they get older?

Marie-Eve Gagnon  9:44  
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yes. I mean we see the same-- the tools are a little bit different, and how it comes out is going to be different, but in older kiddos often it's anxiety, it's fear. It's sort of stalling, refusing to go to sleep, right? They communicate kind of differently. But yes, I do see the same sort of challenges and struggles with older kiddos as well.

Steve Altishin  10:18  
Are there systems or schedules that someone can, let's say, reach out to you to kind of start to understand, you know what kinds of things can work?

Marie-Eve Gagnon  10:37  
Yeah. So if we can kind of align a little bit on the sort of big pieces-- the bedtime, the wake up time, those kind of things-- that can help. And yes, there are absolutely resources to find sort of typical schedules per age, whether you're reaching out to your pediatrician or yes, a sleep consultant, a sleep coach like myself, those are definitely the kinds of things that work well. I also find that sometimes I think, that third party is helpful to kind of set it up, right? That third party to kind of be like, Okay, well, this looks like this could work for us, or this looks like this is what your child needs, right? That's what his body needs at this age. And so absolutely, we can sort of do things like that. Something else to try to align on is some of the big changes, right? So transitioning from a crib to a bed, or a toy if your child was using a pacifier when it's time to eliminate that. And we want to, those are also kind of things that we want to do together. Because if one parent allows the pacifier, and the other parent doesn't, that can be sort of unfair to the child of like, well, why do I have this tool here, but then I don't have this tool here? So that is also something that helps families with kind of some of these bigger milestones: potty training, bed transition, pacifier, some of these things, if we can align on those. And yes, I support families kind of going through these transitions together. It just helps the child, once again, when trying to set them up to be successful and have the same tools available and the same expectations in both places.

Steve Altishin  12:11  
I imagine the crib to the bed is a pretty big milestone, and can be a pretty big problem. Because just my experience is that that is not something that gets necessarily easily done.

Marie-Eve Gagnon  12:31  
Yeah, depending the age of the child, it can be a really tricky transition. It can sort of unravel sleep. Kiddos who are sleeping really well prior to that in the crib, sometimes they can climb out of the crib, and then all of a sudden we have to make a change to keep them safe. And all of a sudden, yes, it can sort of unravel sleep as they learn, and as we have to set up new rules and boundaries, right? So yeah, that is definitely something that if possible, if we can be on the same page on some of these big changes, that is helpful. Because the more consistency we have, the easier it is for the child to start to learn, what are the boundaries? Because that is their job to test. You know, if we're talking about two year old four year old five year old, like older, that is sort of their job of like, hey, what can I get away with, right? Where are those boundaries? And it is our job to have these boundaries, right? They're looking for those boundaries, but it's their job to test to see where they are. And so trying to figure out, the more we're clear on what those boundaries are going to be, and we can be consistent and firm in a loving way, then it becomes easier for the child to say, Well, those are the new rules, and I'll play by those rules. And once again, the more consistency we can have, that's helpful. And sometimes we can't, right? And that's okay, too. But when it is possible, I think it's just a little bit easier for everybody.

Steve Altishin  13:54  
That makes sense. What about, it just came to me, phones? It seems like, you know, iphones, cell phones, can be a flashpoint between parents and kids just in general. With two houses that can be interesting.

Marie-Eve Gagnon  14:13  
Yeah, there is research that shows that being on your screen before bedtime can affect our ability to fall asleep or ability to sleep in general. Obviously, that affects some kids or adults more than others. I think there are some who say that doesn't seem to affect me, but there's definitely a population that are affected by that blue light that we see. So it is always a good rule to say when it's nighttime to sleep, that phones maybe stay in the living room, like maybe in a different place for those older kiddos, whether it's the iPad or any sort of screen that we have. There's a time for it, and then there's a time to sleep. And it's a good foundation to be like, it's turning off and maybe it's in a different room, rather than the bedroom so that we can kind of focus on sleeping. And that is also something with older kiddos that can be-- they're attached--and so that can be tricky to implement. But that consistency is helpful with that.

Steve Altishin  15:08  
Are there times when maybe having a routine is great, but there's, you know, I'm thinking of issues and times when, even when co-parents generally are in agreement, the routine necessarily has to change. I mean, there are different things going on in each family.

Marie-Eve Gagnon  15:32  
Right. And I think there's a couple of ways to sort of approach that. So I'm talking about consistency, kind of being predictable. That's the 80/20, right? This is more like, this is typically what we do, but there will always be a weekend where there's something different or there's something going on, absolutely. So the idea with sleep is that we have consistency and rules so that we know what to do, and so that we can then deviate from those rules and come back easily. Right? So when it comes to routine, once again, this is not like every night, ever, you know? We want to do this, but it's to do it enough times that we know what to do. Right? And it is absolutely okay to deviate from those when life happens. Having said that, like you said, there are times where between the two homes things are just different. And it is not possible to have that, and that's okay. Now, whether it is from a sleep space perspective, or sometimes it just from a preference perspective. Say a parent prefers to do something, like they want to bed share, and then the other parent doesn't. And that's okay. If we can be aligned, that's awesome. I think that makes life a little easier for everybody. But if we can not, it's also okay, and we can work with that. Kiddos are very adaptable. Kiddos are very smart. And they can absolutely learn that there are different rules and expectations at different homes. Just like they learned that, you know, daycare may have different rules than at home, or school has different rules, or grandma, right? Like there's different places that have different rules. And as long as we're consistent with our world, kiddos can absolutely learn to navigate what's expected here and what's expected there. So I work with families all the time that for different, all sorts of reasons, have different expectations or goals when it comes to sleep. And we can kind of set it up. Yeah, we can set it up that way. Sometimes it's a little tricky at first, you know, like if the kiddo is going back and forth. And they're like, well, here I'm supposed to do this, and here I do this. And so when we change something at one home, and then they go back, and maybe they go to the old way at the other house, and then they come back, we can expect some resistance at first. But what I see all the time is that yeah, like the first time there's some resistance, but then, if we're consistent with this is now how we sleep here with some repetition, then it gets easier, right? And then eventually they can basically switch this way and that way very easily. As long as we've held consistent in our new way of how sleep is going to happen in this home.

Steve Altishin  18:11  
Well I think what you're saying is, keep the routine in your home.

Marie-Eve Gagnon  18:17  
Right.

Steve Altishin  18:20  
As opposed to always trying to match and change and do all that kind of stuff.

Marie-Eve Gagnon  18:26  
Yeah. Once again, we decide what we want to do in this home, and then we want to be consistent with what we do in this home when it comes to sleep. And if it matches the other home, that's awesome, because it just easier to go back and forth for sure. There's just more repetition, we're just even more consistent. But if that's not the case, and we have different goals and needs in this home, this is how we do it. And as long as we are fair and consistent and predictable in this home with the way we do it, kiddos will adapt and learn and be able to just sleep well, and be able to sleep well in both environments.

Steve Altishin  19:05  
That kind of leads in to, you know, we've sort of talked about when parents are at least able to work together and are wanting to work together, but unfortunately in there are divorces and exes out there who don't want to work together. Let's talk about that a little bit. You know, when parents aren't on the same page, they aren't really even in the same book, what can they do? Or at least what can one of them do?

Marie-Eve Gagnon  19:44  
Yeah, I work with families where I only work with one family, right? Like I work with one home and we sort of navigate this way; it's like, what do we need in this home. and understanding what's going to happen. What happens at the other home, and understanding what comes back. So I think one of the things that sometimes is tricky is that we get back a kiddo that's very tired, very exhausted. And that's going to be sort of tricky. It's like, Oh okay, after a few days in a different place, we come back and clearly the child is sort of really tired or off schedule, or it's been sort of tricky. But you know, sometimes it is what it is, and just starting to have a plan of like, this is what we're going to do, understanding that that  first day back will always be a little bit tricky. So often, we expect that; we expect that the first day is going to be a little off. And then what can we do that day to make it an easy day? We go back, we have an early bedtime or an easy day, we're just really kind of relaxed that day, and see if we can just kind of get back on track. And then in our home, yeah, I kind of see once again, just the same idea of being very clear and firm and calm and loving about how we're going to help them  learn to sleep this way. And when I think about changing sleep, it's not like, Well, today, I closed the door and you leave, right? There's lots of-- when I work with a family and we're like, Okay, we used to bed share, but now it's time, for example, now it's time in this home for the child to have their own room. There are lots of methods, and this is what I do with a family. It's like, Okay, this is where we are, this is where we want to go, what are the appropriate steps to do that? Are we making small changes, or incremental changes? What words are we using to explain that to the child ? Obviously, it depends on the age, but there are lots of ways to go about making changes in a way that supports the child and that's not too overwhelming, and to just be able to kind of meet them where they are, but still be able to teach them how we want sleep to be at our house. So when we talk about changing things, it's not just like, well, tonight, right? There are tools, there's a strategy, there steps that we can take to help make those changes and teach those skills and make sure they're successful.

Steve Altishin  22:11  
And that's kind of the magic-- they're skills, and you teach them. You learn them, and it's like you said, it's not a one day thing. And that's where someone like you comes in. And it probably also helps them understand that it's not a one day thing, because it can obviously be very frustrating, you would think, for the parents.

Marie-Eve Gagnon  22:29  
Yeah, so part of sleep, obviously, is biological, our body needs it. But a lot of it is behavioral. And it is a skill. Like sleeping independently is absolutely a skill that we have to learn. I think about it in the same way I think about learning; learning to walk or to crawl, at some point when it's the right time, kiddos need to practice and have some repetition to be able to master the skill, and we need to set them up to try to have that skills and practice these things. So yeah, understanding like, what are the child's skills at this point, their association, what do they associate with sleep? What do they need to fall asleep? What are they used to and how can you help them grow those skills so that they're like, yeah, I can be in this room, or I can fall asleep without you, or I can go back to sleep. If I wake up in the night, I don't need to come and find you. So a lot of it is building confidence to know that I can do it, and helping them know what to do. If I do wake up, what do I do? Maybe I breathe, maybe I just drink a glass of water. But yes, helping them build those skills, that confidence of being like, I can do that, and I'm able to take care of myself and go back to sleep.

Steve Altishin  23:47  
It would seem that even if parents are cooperating about everything, and don't agree on many things, even then, the communication between the parents is awfully important because, as you were talking about, children learn at different levels, you know? And so for someone to at least understand or communicate about what's happening, it can help the other parent, even if the other parent maybe does things a little differently.

Marie-Eve Gagnon  24:22  
Right. Yes. And sometimes kids, once again, kids are smart, right? And they can sort of, like, they do what they can get away with. And so often what I hear is that, oh my gosh, my child sleeps this way at the other parent's, but they never do that for me. Right? They don't do the same thing. They don't respond the same way. They don't behave the same way. I didn't know they could do it that way there. And so yes, even kind of sharing those kinds of things so that the parents like, oh, good to know that you're kind of behaving that way or you're able to do these things somewhere else. So yes, the more the more that parents are able to share a little bit that definitely can help us be on on top of things and be like, oh, yeah, your kiddo sleeps great on their own. How come you don't do it here with me? Right? And so kind of making those adjustments.

Steve Altishin  25:13  
A little bit about, someone may come up to me, and I would ask, well, the year has a lot of different things going on. And should I keep to a schedule no matter what? Summer vacation, school, holidays vacation? Do I have to keep that schedule? Is there flexibility that we can have? How did those sort of weekend, vacation, special occasions work into this?

Marie-Eve Gagnon  25:49  
Yeah, so absolutely, life happens. And we want to make those memories and we want to have those adventures and we want to go to places and be off schedule and all that. Absolutely. So I definitely encourage families to get off the schedule and, you know, enjoy things and not feel like you have to be at home and things are always going to be the same way. Having that baseline, right, because that's kind of how I think about it. If we have a baseline, we have something that we go back. We have something that we know will work for the family, and helps us be able to go offline and enjoy and do different things. And as the kiddos get older, yes, often we can have a different bedtime on the weekend, or definitely when we're traveling, we do different things or the holidays. Yes, during the holidays, we all typically start to go to bed later, maybe we wake up later. So absolutely, we can do this. But having a baseline is helpful so that you're like, Okay, now you're a little cranky, I think maybe we've been going to bed too late for too many nights. Now let's go back, right, let's go back to our baseline so that we have something to go back to. The other part of this is that some kiddos are way more flexible and adaptable than others. And so that's a big part of this is that if your child does well, they go to bed later, and they sleep in later, and that works well, then go with it. There are also some kiddos who are not as flexible from a sleep perspective. And as when you get off that baseline, you kind of pay for it, you know? Like their sleep gets worse, or they wake up even more. So I think part of it is kind of taking the lead from who your child is and how they respond to that. And if they're doing well then go for it. If you find that they don't, right, they're not quite as flexible, then maybe you know that, then you get to decide whether going off schedule is worth it, or maybe not as often because then you're like, Well, we had a really tough morning the next day or something like that.

Steve Altishin  27:47  
A really tough morning the next day-- that kind of made me think of the communication of, let's say there's something happening the next day, they're gonna go somewhere, whatever, some out of the norm change. It would seem to me that for one parent who knows about it, it'd be important to relay that to the other parent that the next day may be different. And just as important for the parent who's getting the information not to say, Well, I'm not gonna listen to you, kind of a thing.

Marie-Eve Gagnon  28:24  
Yeah, so I always think of parents as thinking about tomorrow, right? What are you doing today, and thinking about what does that do to tomorrow? And if yes, you're having the late night, but you're dropping the kiddo to their parent, or they have to go to schoo, well how is tomorrow gonna go based on the decisions I make today from a sleep perspective? And so yeah, sometimes, once again, it is absolutely worth it. And sometimes it's like, oh, okay, well we know they have a big day tomorrow, whatever that means, so then maybe today I will kind of, you know, do my part and try to keep kiddo on schedule so that they're at their best for this big day that they have tomorrow.

Steve Altishin  29:03  
Can you give a tip on, and it's an issue that I know we had just in general, which was coming home from vacation. Let's say, you know, and especially now if this is a two parent household, one parent takes the kid for two weeks and bam, changes the routine. Is there anything, any tips about getting ready to come back to the norm? 

Marie-Eve Gagnon  29:31  
Yeah. I think part of it is communicating like, Hey, we've had so much fun on vacation. We did all these great things, but hey, we're coming back home and we're gonna have to go back to reality and what that looks like. Often when we've transitioned back, like having maybe an easy day when we're back home. It's like, okay, the first day that we're back, maybe not planning too many things so that we have time to sort of adjust and maybe focus on coming back. Depending on the child's age, but often it seems like if we've been going to bed later, waking up later, and you know that school is gonna start in a couple days, and that's wakeup time, it's just not gonna work. So then starting to wake them up earlier, that's usually sort of the first thing that we can do is that, okay, let's wake up earlier, let's wake them up and start to bring the wakeup time earlier and the bedtime earlier so that in a couple days, when school starts, your clock is sort of re adjusted to the timezone that we need to be in or the timing that we need to be in. So that's often the first thing is just kind of thinking about, okay, is this wakeup time going to work for me? And if not, then let's bring that, let's wake them up a little bit earlier, which then brings bed time a little bit earlier, because you can't just bring that time earlier. If you woke up at 10am, you're not going to be going to bed at 8pm. So we kind of need to wake up early, so that then we can shift bedtime earlier, which then they'll start waking up earlier on their own by just kind of getting back in that rhythm first. And yeah, just expecting that transition. And having said that, expecting that the first day of school might be a little late, that first morning might be a little tricky after this lovely time off, but that's okay.

Steve Altishin  31:14  
Yeah, I mean, don't lose hope. I mean, one day backwards isn't a disaster. I'm looking and we're about out of time. This was really, really cool. But is there one thing that we missed or I haven't asked about that you'd like to just say to a parent who says, like, my kid just can't fall asleep, and I'm pulling my hair out, where do I turn?

Marie-Eve Gagnon  31:41  
Yeah, I would say reach out. Because if sleep is hard, we can we can make it better. And so whether there's-- typically what's going on is more like habits and behavioral and things that we can affect. Every so often there is a physical or medical condition that can be causing some sleep issues. But thankfully, often, it's just more things that we can fairly easily adjust. So yeah, reach out to me, reach out to your pediatrician, but kind of ask this question. If sleep is hard, it does not have to stay that way. We can change that.

Steve Altishin  32:18  
And I do want to remind everyone watching that we do have Marie-Eve's contact information on our Facebook page. Quickly though, if you want to shoot it out, is there an email or a website?

Marie-Eve Gagnon  32:31  
So my website is probably the easiest way : slumbertimesolutions.com. Basically, the best way to reach out to me is you can schedule a free initial assessment call with me. And then we can just talk about what's going on and see if we're a good fit to work together.

Steve Altishin  32:48  
I love it. I love it. Well, thank you, Marie-Eve, for being here today and really giving us an in-depth look into why some children struggle with sleeping and you know, some real tips to help them sleep better. And so thank you so much for being here.

Marie-Eve Gagnon  33:04  
Thank you for having me on.

Steve Altishin  33:06  
I loved it. And thank you everyone for joining us today. Again, if anyone has any further questions on today's topic, post it here, we can get you connected with Marie-Eve. And with that said, till next time, stay safe, stay happy, and we'll see you on our next one.

Outro:
This has been Modern Family Matters, a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Landerholm Family Law and Pacific Cascade Family Law, serving families in Oregon and Washington. If you are in need of legal counsel or have additional questions about a family law matter important to you, please visit our websites at landerholmlaw.com or pacificcascadefamilylaw.com. You can also call our headquarters at (503) 227-0200 to schedule a case evaluation with one of our seasoned attorneys. Modern Family Matters, advocating for your better tomorrow and offering legal solutions important to the modern family.