How Parents Can Help Their Children Value Domestic Labor and Family Responsibilities

We sit down with Author and Coach, Lori Sugarman, to discuss how parents can help their children take personal pride in their family and domestic responsibilities. In this episode, Steve and Lori discuss the following:

• Valuing unpaid care work and its impact on society.
• Valuing and connecting children with domestic labor and coparenting.
• Involving children in household responsibilities and setting standards based on family values.
• Empowering children to contribute to household tasks.
• Gender roles in household chores and childcare.

If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.

To learn more about how Lori can help you, you can visit her website at: https://ourhomeourpride.com/

Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.

Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you. Covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters, with expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests, we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's your host, Steve Altishin.

Steve Altishin  0:32  
Hi, everyone, I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships at Pacific Cascade Legal. And today I'm here with Family Coach and Author, Lori Sugarman Lee to talk about how parents can help their children value and connect with domestic labor and family responsibilities. So Lori, before we get started on this, can you just kind of tell us a little bit about yourself, and maybe the book you wrote and why you wrote it?

Lori Sugarman  0:59  
Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be with you today. So I am a Family Coach. And this is my debut children's book, Our Home: The Love, Work, and Heart of Family. I'll share a little bit of background as to how I came to this. I used to work as a marketing strategist, I had a 15 year career and I was working with Four Seasons, hotels and resorts, which was a fabulous gig pre-kids. Post-kids a little bit more complicated logistically, and the flexibility that I was looking for in my career at that time just wasn't on offer. So I decided to go all in on unpaid work, the unpaid work of care of my family and my community and children's charities worldwide. And I was really thriving in that role, I really enjoyed the opportunity to make those kinds of contributions, our family had the chance to move internationally twice, we lived in London, England for four years, and then moved to where we are now, which is Chicago. Every time we move, we're called to update all of our personal family documents, wills, insurance, and all that stuff. We came to the US. We obviously got health insurance and life insurance. And my husband said to me, let's get you disability insurance. Because, you know, your job is such that if anything happens to you, I will have to take a leave, he said and fill in for all the things that you do. So this unpaid work that I did was very much valued by my family and my community. Come to find out though, it wasn't the same when it comes to this disability insurance agent. He rejected me saying to me, you're, you're just a housewife, you don't receive any salary. So if anything happens to you, there isn't a loss. And it was such a bubble bursting moment for me about the systematized devaluing of unpaid labor. And I had to start talking about it. So I began to write and study and network with a lot of other people who were similarly wanting to raise a consciousness about the value in the contributions of the unpaid work primarily of women. It's something that globally, women carry 75% of this unpaid work. And a lot of the women that I connected with in this work, we're doing incredible things at the government policy level impacting corporate C suites. As a stay at home mom, I didn't have a platform to do work like that. But I reflected and I thought, Where am I credible? Where can I have an impact? And I thought, Well, I've been raising my children for 13 years, I've been working in the school as head of the parents association, I've been doing children's charities, I can talk to kids. And I thought, what better contribution than to impact the next generation to remove gender expectations from the roles of care and look at it as work that should and can be done by us all?

Steve Altishin  3:58  
I love it. I love it. It really does dovetail into a lot of stuff that happens in our firm. You know, we're a family law firm. And so there are divorces, co- parenting, there is custody, there's all that kind of stuff. And one of the issues that arises, like you say, is it's easy to value someone's worth if they've got an income, you know, outside, but the value of the person who isn't home is it's almost like it's always a struggle to convince a court to convince a judge that you know, that it has value. You know, more than just that sort of like, you know, tipping of the hat-- Oh, I know there's value, but it's not really valued in that sense. And, you know, that's why we really wanted to kind of talk about that because it works with us as well. And then as you go parenting forward, it's always an issue. So I want to start with something that I think I heard you talk about, which is, you know, you hear people talk about their career goals, they're, you know, working hard, they want to be a successful business, they want to make things, they want to do all that stuff and make a product. But they're talking about outside of the home, and they measure it in in dollars given to them, you're taking in. But working hard to create a great home environment isn't valued like this. Can you just kind of start maybe with, you know, why isn't it and why should it be?

Lori Sugarman  5:48  
Well, domestic work makes all other work possible. If we didn't have the care of the future generation of laborers, nothing else would happen. And so this care of children in this care of community is, is truly invaluable. And it was actually measured as sort of an experiment because you know, it's not even counted in the GDP, all of this care. And by the way, it's not even just care of children. It's care of the elderly, it's care of people with disabilities, it, it goes well beyond children. It's not even captured and the metrics of the success of our nation. And that is mind blowing, to me that it all sort of goes it's it's just invisible, it's taken so for granted. But it is the work that makes all other work possible, and it was valued at $10.9 trillion globally. And that's just at minimum wage, that's if you agree that this work is worth the minimum wage. And also, that's the part of the work of care that we can see and measure the executional part. But there's so much more to it again, that women tend to carry an inequitable load of which is all of the mental and emotional labor, all of the remembering the planning, the noticing the worrying, that so often women sort of keep that unending ticker tape in their head. It's so hard, as you say, to articulate a metric and a value for that. And something that I instruct new moms to do. And women in any state can start where you are, basically, but you know, we always have these baby book journals where we keep all the milestones for the baby. But I suggest to parents that they keep similar milestones for themselves, because children do change us in ways that are worth noticing and worth mentioning. And as caregivers and parents, we are achieving goals, we are growing, we are contributing. And you know, the one of the things that I did when I first recognized that this work I was doing wasn't being recognized, is I made myself a LinkedIn profile of all of the things that I was doing as a care giver, to my family and community, all the achievements, all of the contributions, all of the things that I could measure notable accomplishments, and when you start to lay it out like that, you can absolutely see it does have tremendous value. 

Steve Altishin  8:33  
That's why I love the children's book. Sometimes it's like me, the old dog new trick. But what you focus on is getting children involved. And at times, when people talk about fixing their children or helping their children, it's just a discussion between the parents. And the kids aren't in that discussion so much. And so I really like when to get that paradigm shift, you suggested, starting with helping the children value and connect with what we're talking about, that domestic labor, the family responsibilities, and why it's just not always just the girls who should do it.

Lori Sugarman  9:19  
Right. And the first thing I love to suggest is, you know the concept of this word, Shore. Anything about it. The word shore is such a downer. It literally is defined as work that is tedious, repetitive, unappealing, and difficult. But that's not really what this work is. I mean, the care of our home and family is the work of nurturing and nourishing and protecting our investments like our home and our cars and also adhering to municipal and community standards. And so it's not work that is necessarily to always be dreaded. I mean, we are it's tiring and we're Doing it when you know, late at night and early in the morning often, but at its core, and this is what I really would love for us to inspire in our children is that this is the work of gratitude for all that we have.

Steve Altishin  10:13  
Also like how how you connect this domestic work, I mean, for whatever the anyone know what a good name for it is with the outside world, in one of the things that I know, just doesn't really kind of get brought up is you know, I mean, it's the work with the school. It's the work with the pediatricians. It's the work with all these other people, the teams, the band, the everything else, they get you in the community and helping. I just think that's really cool. And I also like, one thing I kind of want to ask you was, I think I heard you say something to the effect that that the home is the most important organization. Yeah, I love that. I love that.

Lori Sugarman  10:56  
Thank you Well, credit to Eva broadsky, actually the author of fair play for that concept. And she really guides us to treat our homes like an organization and see our families like a team. And it's really, really helpful to think about it that way in terms of the division of labor in terms of task ownership, in terms of coming together and having meetings like you were would in an organization. And really what that creates for us is one, open lines of communication, to clear expectations, and three, a chance to come together and connect on how things are going and make the rejig if necessary. And it's so helpful. And I love the idea of including children at the table for these important conversations about how a family flows, because kids are so thoughtful, and so capable, really. And when they feel included and trusted. It's incredible what they contribute. 

Steve Altishin  11:58  
And when you talk home, I really like when you say multiple homes, maybe. Because this is again, where coparenting comes in is a lot of families don't live in one home. It's the kids. And what can you do to help align family values with two different homes?

Lori Sugarman  12:21  
Yeah, right. And this is so critical for for the health and nourishment of children right is to have this continuity. And that's something that parents can play a huge role in working together to achieve for the children, right? I know co parenting is really, really complicated. But always the goal of these parents is trying to work together for the benefit in the sake of the child. And so if they both agree that the child can be empowered and involved in a certain way, and that can happen in both environments, then that's really strengthening for the child. And I think it's probably going to be very inspiring for the parent as well.

Steve Altishin  13:03  
And the parent, I think it seems like it's important for it's not just okay, children, this is what you should do. But it's parents, this is what we should do. I think you call it illuminating for the children, the meeting, the fullness of care, and all that goes into running a home. And it's kind of how do you do that? I mean, how do you engage this these children not only in what they should do going forward, but But what everybody in the family should do.

Lori Sugarman  13:36  
So there's three things really the first is understanding the scope of work of a home and family, so much of it is invisible. So the opportunity to I say parent more loudly. So make more of what you do, and the awareness of the child and then talk about the intrinsic value of all of this work. How is it impacting us directly? What is the implication of the effort that we're making? And then most importantly, for kids and they love this part is really understanding why are we doing this? And this is founded in values, as you said, right? The the, the checklist that we make for ourselves should not be based on things that we think other people expect of us or things we're worried about getting judged on, but they should be things we really genuinely care about for our family. And if we don't really care about it, aside from things we have to do, like take out the garbage on certain days and whatnot. But if it's not really connected to our core values, there's an opportunity to release it or do it less frequently or do it to a standard that works for us and then again, kids being a part of that conversation is really important and understanding how and why we came to that that decision. So, like I talk about this example with my son who's 13. If I were to just say to him, change your sheets, like, How annoying is that, like the fitted sheet is so difficult. There's nothing fun about it. But if I say to him, Hey, I don't know if you knew this, but sleeping on really clean sheets is supportive of having clear skin. So why don't we set up like a weekly, every Monday or whatever, where we're for sure, changing your pillowcase, and ideally, changing all of your sheets, and I'm here to help you with that, if you need, then he's in because he understands the reason behind the effort we're making in this task. Similarly, you know, if you're doing a lot of driving, especially parents who have transferring kids from one home to the other, or however it works, if you're in your car a lot, your car is likely getting messy. And you're probably always yelling at your kids keep it tidy. But if you help them understand that car maintenance is connected to car value, and that at the time that you're ready to either trade in or resale. Hey, this car might actually be worth like, I don't know, $500 or $1,000. More if we keep it in really good shape. Imagine what our family could do with that. $500? Like, what would we dream of doing with that? And then finally, like they're invested, and keep clean and getting to that point. So if you add the context for them, what is this all about this task, this this protection of an investment that we have, or this care of our health and safety, whatever it is, why are we doing this? 

Steve Altishin  16:45  
And I love that, you know, we at our house, one of the things was not to just make everything on a Saturday. Yeah, because yeah, your data became where's the you know, or the value if you do like a little bit, you change the sheets on Monday and do this on Tuesday and do that on Wednesday, hey, you got a free Saturday. 

Lori Sugarman  17:05  
Yeah, or like on Saturdays, on the weekends, we don't make our bed. You know, and every family, you know, flows the world differently. Every family has different agreements and negotiations. And you know, they either flow together, or they flow in tandem, or at least they're flowing in consideration of one another. And every family can be who and what they want to be. That's the beauty of the family unit. However you look however you present yourself in this world, you know, you decide what's important to you. And it also takes into consideration, you know, the way your family thrives in a space, I am somebody who is quite tidy, a little bit type A I like things to be just so my older son doesn't thrive in the same type of space, he's actually more nostalgic, he loves being surrounded by his stuff, his special things, his sports trophies, his favorite childhood books, pieces of paper that someone wrote him a nice note on, he wants his stuff all around him. So my opportunity is not to impose my standard on him, but to help him set a standard for how he is his best self in his space. 

Steve Altishin  18:24  
Well, I love that. And that's kind of, I think, as you said, something like, you know, kind of molding the responsibilities, the word, the specific tasks, maybe the play to their weaknesses and strengths. And let them kind of not be, you know, told you got to do this or else.

Lori Sugarman  18:50  
Exactly. And I love the opportunity to because this is a muscle that we build slowly, right? This is not about pawning off work on to kids. This is about educating and empowering because soon all kids are living its independence. And eventually they're hopefully thriving as partners themselves, right? So it's all about teaching them how to contribute in that way. And the best place to start because you want kids to feel success. And this you want them to feel pride. And this is by matching them to things that play to their strengths. So obviously you want a task to be age appropriate and safe. That's first and foremost. But you know, connect a child to a particular skill that they have. My younger one happens to be a great organizer. So he's my guy that unloads the groceries and organizes the pantry. My older one is a very enthusiastic eater. So he is vacuuming the crops that inevitably are found underneath his chair and it's also a great one for him because he loves music and so he could do the back Giving with his headphones on listening to music, then, you know, if you happen to have a child who works well in a partnership, then you can invite them into something that you're already doing like laundry and yard work, and give them little bits to sort of engage in or even just to watch you and learn. And then they become a part of the success of that task as well.

Steve Altishin  20:26  
And, going kind of back to, you know, what we do, again, one of the biggest problems that co parenting tend to face is that their two houses aren't aligned, or two families aren't aligned. And so it's a kin moving from, this is what this is going to happen to, but this is going to happen. And I and, and I know you're talking about, you know, this whole thing creates an opportunity there. Where you the kids could help, at least is the way I read it, the kids can help align the values in the other room, suddenly, the kids can say, Hey, Dad, dad, we've been doing this. And it's really cool. We do this year can we did and, and, and the parents don't have to like be Oh, I don't want to do anything she wants to, it's kind of like, Oh, you want to do it.

Lori Sugarman  21:24  
Exactly. And then in a case like that, you know, maybe maybe that child is engaged in tasks that are more related to, you know, their own space, their own room that they can do easily in both places, versus something, you know, in the kitchen, or in a more shared space where the households may not be as aligned to how they flow. But it is a huge opportunity for parents to see this empowerment that the child comes in with and really honor that for them and not be about like, as you said, purposely not wanting to do it the way that it's done in the other home, because look so often couples come to me. And the resentment that's building between them is related to the heavy load of domestic labor and the inequitable load of domestic labor. So this is a hot button for sure, between couples. And so the work that I do with families is in large part to help them manage the stress around domestic labor. And it's very, very possible with language and systems of boundaries.

Steve Altishin  22:30  
Yeah, let's talk about that a little your practice than what you do with families. It's a little bit of a taste of how how you work with families on this.

Lori Sugarman  22:42  
So of course, every family that comes to me is so unique, and you know, the struggle and the challenges that they're facing. But I do specialize in conversations and systems around domestic labor. So if they do come to me, that is usually something that's causing them stress. And so we take a minute to reflect on what the challenges are and what systems they may or may not have in place. Typically families don't have a lot of systems in place to sort of facilitate the efficiency and the equitable division of this labor. And so I help them to implement that. But it's also really about language. And, you know, I don't think a lot of couples are sitting down and having no not 20 minute conversation, but even like a five minute conversation around. How do you want it? How do you want to deal with taking out the garbage in our house? Like, how should we do it? Like, what's the standard? What's the process? I think people just start living together, and they bring the experience of their childhood, and they bring the experience of their cultural upbringing and all the things that they know and the ways that they do it, and then they come together. And the opportunity is really the time to reflect on Oh, you do it that way? Oh, that's interesting. I do it this way. I wonder why we're different? And like, when you do do it that way? Is that do you care like, or is that just what you're used to? And like, what if I want it to be done differently? Do you think we can meet in the middle? I'm not sure they're having these conversations about a lot of domestic tasks. And it's, it's so like, sort of clarifying when you do do that to create your own standards and processes as a new family unit. And understand where you're coming from and what your approach is. When I work with families, the ideal goal is to make the weight of domestic labor as light as possible to take up as much space in their life as possible. And the way that I encourage that is by holistic owning of tasks. And not just one partner, owning the care of the home and the other one showing up as a helper.

Steve Altishin  25:01  
I love that, because that gets back way back to, you know, the start of the conversation, which is, this has been systemic gender related. And you know, the boy takes out the garbage, the girl makes the bed, I mean, just stuff like that. And, and that's really important to break. And when you talk about you don't do you know, maybe one way you do this and do that, just Somehow it feels like breaking that, that like, I'm not doing that because I'm a boy.

Lori Sugarman  25:34  
And that's really what the cycle that I want to break with this book for the next generation is letting boys and men know that they are incredibly beautiful caregivers as well. And you know, we have these notions of like, mother knows best and maternal instinct and women are better multitaskers and all these things that we believe as a society. But none of those things are actually founded in science. And I think a lot of those concepts exclude men from being connected to the work of care when they are really needed and wanted and belong in that space.

Steve Altishin  26:17  
I think that's great. I think that's great. Wow, we have almost blow through a half hour goes way, way too fast. Before we we go though about a couple of things I want you to first or maybe second, be able to tell people how they get a hold of you. And then also maybe if we miss something that you really want us to add that we haven't hit yet.

Lori Sugarman  26:42  
Thank you so much. So you can find me on Instagram, my handle is @ourhomeour pride. And when I talk about pride, it's not at all pride and perfection. It is pride in the standard that you have set for your family without fear of judgment, and the expectations of anyone else. And my website is www.ourhomeourpride.com My book, Our Home, is available almost everywhere that books are sold Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Target any beautiful independent bookseller near you. And I'm so grateful to have connected with you today.

Steve Altishin  27:16  
Well, I am so happy about this, we could talk about 10 different things. And maybe we will. I would love to have you back. But we are out of time. So so much thank you, Loru, you, what you did is you provide a really great insight into this issue in a way that it's understandable, you know, even people like me could understand. And that's not an easy thing to do. And the book did that as well. So I just I very much recommend that. So thank you for being here today.

Lori Sugarman  27:49  
Thank you so much. 

Steve Altishin  27:51  
And everyone. Thank you for joining us today. If anyone has any further questions on today's topic, you can post it here and we can get you connected with Lori or you can connect to her directly yourself. So until next time, stay safe, stay happy and be well.

Outro:
This has been Modern Family Matters, a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Pacific Cascade Legal, serving families in Oregon and Washington. If you are in need of legal counsel or have additional questions about a family law matter important to you, please visit our websites at pacificcascadelegal.com or pacificcascadefamilylaw.com. You can also call our headquarters at (503) 227-0200 to schedule a case evaluation with one of our seasoned attorneys. Modern Family Matters, advocating for your better tomorrow and offering legal solutions important to the modern family.