How to Emotionally Exit an Unhealthy Relationship Once You’ve Made the Decision to Physically Leave

Join us as we sit down with Therapist, Shannon Petrovich, to discuss how to approach the hurdle of severing emotional ties with an abusive partner once you've made the decision to physically leave. Shannon will be discussing the following:
 

• Types of emotional abuse, including invalidation, creating chaos and emotional blackmail.
• Understanding trauma-bonding and the dysfunctional attachment it keeps alive.
• The endless cycle of love bombing, criticism,  manipulation, resignation, distress and repeat.
• How to untangle the unhealthy attachments that emotional abuse creates.
• Strategies to help you take stock of the fear, obligation, and guilt that currently live inside you.
• Boundaries; how to create and maintain them with people who don’t respect them.
• Grappling with grief and rebuilding your sense of self.
• Creating healthy self-care strategies, self-compassion, and self-support.

If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.

To learn more about Shannon can help you, you can visit her website: https://www.nofoggydays.com/

Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.

Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you. Covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters, with expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests, we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's your host, Steve Altishin.

Steve Altishin  
Hi, everyone. I'm Steve Altishin Director of Client Partnerships here at Pacific Cascade Legal. And today I'm here with therapist, Shannon Petrovich to discuss how to approach the hurdle of severing emotional ties with an abusive partner once you've made the decision to physically leave. So Shannon, how you doing today?

Shannon Petrovich  
Doing great, Steve, how about you?

Steve Altishin  
I'm doing well, we got sunshine. 

Shannon Petrovich  
Nice. We always have sunshine here in Arizona.

Steve Altishin  
That is true. We don't always have it in Oregon, so this is good. So before we start today, can you just sort of tell us a little bit about yourself? Maybe what brought you to doing the work you're doing? 

Shannon Petrovich  
Sure. So in college, initially, I think I wanted to be a doctor or veterinarian. But pretty early on, I realized that what really fascinated me was how we tick emotionally, psychologically, and relationally. So I ended up doing clinical social work and getting my clinical licenses. And I've been in the field about 35 years as a therapist in lots of different areas. But about five years ago, I decided that sharing the information and strategies that I've gathered over the years, just one person at a time was not enough. And I started a YouTube channel called therapist talks. And that was interesting because I thought it would be kind of general mental health issues of all sorts. But what people really gravitated to and needed to hear was about toxic, abusive and narcissistic relationships. So the more I focused on that, the more it blew up, and the more I needed to focus on that. And then about a year and a half ago, I decided I really needed to bring it together into a book to help people to really heal when they've just realized that they're in a toxic relationship. And so my book out of the fog into the clear journaling to help you heal from toxic relationships came into being last May. So I guess it's been a year now. And and it's just been a really interesting journey, trying to help people who find themselves lost in that fog.

Steve Altishin  
This is a great topic for us to talk about. Because, you know, as family law attorneys, you know, we do a lot of obviously divorces that have a lot of physical abuse, emotional abuse, but emotional abuse is usually not as easy in physical abuse. There's more legal ramifications, there's more things you can do. There's more ways to prove it for one to another word, but it can be kind of hard can to identify emotional abuse, and then be able to deal with it. How do we how do you go about that? How do we go about even identifying what emotional abuse and narcissistic relationship is?

Shannon Petrovich  
It's really hard Steve, and our culture doesn't really understand it very well. And, and the word narcissism gets thrown around and weaponized a lot. So we can talk about that as well. But how to identify it is really pretty simple. It's not easy, but it's simple. That if your thoughts feelings, wants and needs don't matter in the relationship and the other person's do, and you feel like you can't fully exist in that relationship and that you are relegated to having to placate Peacekeeper and people pleaser all the time. And that when you stop doing those three things, that you the other person blows up, or they implode or explode, imploding, meaning that they get suicidal and raging and tearful, exploiting sort of that more conventional bullying tactics. But all of those things are basic ways of undermining you and making sure that your thoughts feelings, wants and needs don't matter. And if you feel like you're in that kind of a relationship, it's a toxic relationship because we as humans need to matter. And we need our primary relationship to be our most supportive area in our lives. And oftentimes, that's the most hurtful and toxic area of our lives.

Steve Altishin  
We had talked about some kind of specific ways and things people do to gain that emotional advantage, and I know you talked about a couple that I really thought were interesting, like, you know, invalidating other people or distorting or dismissing them. How can people kind of see that? I mean, can you explain kind of what the maybe danger signs even are about those.

Shannon Petrovich  
So one of the things that I really believe in and really start with, in my individual work with people, and also in my book, is to recognize how you speak to yourself inside your own head. And so oftentimes, we have a toxic relationship with ourselves. So we talk to ourselves somewhere along the lines of 40,000 times a day, that's a lot. And I don't know who sat down and counted all that. But apparently, that's what everyone says. So if all of that is I'm so stupid, I'm so ugly, I'm too fat, I'm too this, I'm to that. Or whenever you get frustrated, you discourage yourself, and I'm never any good. I'm never going to you know, I'm unlovable. Those kinds of underlying toxic messages that we tell ourselves, creates an environment where we can't defend ourselves against other people who would talk to us that way. So it isn't blaming the victim. And it isn't that it's your fault that someone treats you that way. But it is important to recognize those internal dialogues in order to stand up for yourself and start to be compassionate towards yourself, and caring and encouraging like you would a friend. Typically when you say those awful things to yourself, you don't talk to anyone else in your life that way. So recognizing that first is super key, and then recognizing how people speak to you and how they treat you. And that becomes a lot more clear once you've cleared up the inside. But sort of things like gaslighting can be tricky, because they're trying to make you feel crazy. Tend to isolate you from your people so that you don't have people to Reality Check with, they tend to run down some of the most important things in your life so that you carve yourself off from those things and only focus on them and their things, their interests. Over time you stop recognizing how you feel because you're so focused on how they feel, you start to only be involved in their moods, their emotions, their needs. And that's when you start to you start to stop existing. And then there are some trickier was like love bombing cycled with devaluing, and that it's the cycling back and forth that really creates the hook that then hooks you into that trauma bond, so that the way that happens is by that love bombing, and people say, Well, you know, when you're first in love, it all feels like love bombing. So what's the difference? Well, the difference is if you step back, and you take a breath, and you want to go do something else one day, and they freak out. That's love bombing, they were not genuinely wanting to get to know you and wanting to create real relationship. They were coming in hot, and trying to grab control of you. When woman told me that she had a date show up with an engagement ring. I was like, wow, that's coming in hot. That's hardcore love bombing doesn't even know or yet but coming in hot, you know. So we have to be really careful about that kind of thing. And when you take a break, and you take a step back, and you kind of observe the relationship, do they freak out? Do they get upset? And then do they kind of want you to placate them and their emotions. Then when they start to devalue you, you start to get hooked in.

Steve Altishin  
It sounds like this is a cycle, you know, starts with oh, great, great, great. Oh, terrible, terrible, terrible. Dead silence. Oh, great, great, great. I mean, it's a cycle that you just sort of fall into, I'm imagining.

Shannon Petrovich  
Right? And it's very tricky that way. Because when you're getting love bombed, that feels good. And then when the devaluing starts to happen, when they start to run you down or tell you that don't like it, when you do that, or say that or you're you're not attending to them enough, or you're not being adoring enough of them, which is typically what it is. Then they kind of punish you with anger, little bursts of anger, little pouty episodes. implosions and explosions. And when that happens, you sort of go, oh, gosh, I want to get back to that love place. But the love place was never real to begin with. And so when you have that devaluing happening over in that cycling of that devaluing, you start to live on the breadcrumbs. So you, you know, they'll throw you a little breadcrumb, just as you're starting to get tired of it and want to bow out. And so then you get hooked in again, and you think, Well, I just need to behave better and I just need to do these things and don't don't do those things. And so over time you're training yourself to do what they want and not do what they don't want. And pretty soon your, your thoughts, feelings, wants and needs yourself don't do not exist in this relationship, and it's all about them. And once that happens, it's really hard to get out because you've ceased to exist for yourself. And you don't even know what you think or feel anymore.

Steve Altishin  
It sounds like a control. I mean, it's like, it's like, the object is to control you. And and once they control you, then, like you said, they can do whatever they want. And you have to do what they want. Right?

Shannon Petrovich  
It's all about control and manipulation. And it's, it's like a big smorgasbord of strategies. And so if this works, then they'll keep hitting that button. And when that stops working, they'll try other buttons. And so you have to learn to step back emotionally, and watch the circus, and not get involved in it.

Steve Altishin  
Yeah, and that's, that's got to be tough, because these bonds, I was reading some stuff, he said, you know, are especially strong. I mean, it's, they're stronger than you would you kind of would imagine, they wouldn't be for, you know, being negative stuff. And so, that leads to, you know, how does someone even start to break these bonds to get out of this relationship?

Shannon Petrovich  
Right, and there is a another key piece of that, when you're getting into relationships, you have to be extremely careful with your heart. So the, there's this some stuff called oxytocin in our brain. And it's the same chemical that's released when you breastfeed a baby. And it's released when you have sex with someone. So if you want to keep your head on board, and not get sucked into a relationship too soon, and lose yourself, you have to be careful with intimacy, because you're bonding yourself to somebody at the level of breastfeeding a baby. That's pretty hardcore bonding. So you don't want to get involved with somebody before you know them really, really well. When I'm working with clients, I always say unless you're ready to hand somebody, your car keys, your bank account and your PIN number, you should not be having sex with them. And people, they don't, you know, I mean, our culture stinks. This because people are sort of like three dates in your hands in the sack. That's a terrible setup for yourself, you are binding yourself to somebody you don't even know why.

Steve Altishin  
But getting out, working your way out. If I were to come to you, with a situation like this, saying, you know, this person is doing ABC terrible, terrible job like Thank you. No, I love to do How can I change them? Is that really the issue?

Shannon Petrovich  
Typically, people want to diagnose their partner, and then they want to change their partner. And so we clarify that right away, you're not going to change anybody. But sometimes the relationship has been set in motion in a way that's unhealthy. And both people want it to be different. So before you just fail, it's really important to start to take care of yourself, like I said, emotionally being more compassionate and caring towards yourself, showing up fully with your thoughts, feelings, wants and needs, and then watching what happens. So I've seen some times where, you know, a partner will start to stand up for themselves and start to say, no, that's not okay with me, and this is what I want to do. And this is how I feel about that. And the other person goes, Oh, I had no idea because you never said, and that's like, cool, that's resolvable, but if on the other hand, that person implodes, explodes, and really escalates their behavior, because you're stepping outside of that box that puts you in, you know that that is a relationship that's not resolvable. So the first step is to emotionally step back and be able to watch the circus and be able to go, okay, that's manipulation, that's manipulation. That's a lie. I know that's not true. And be able to do that sometimes you have to check in with your people, even if you've been separated from them for a while, and say, Help me with reality here. Because my emotions are too sucked in. And my higher cortex is just not online right now. And so when you get that higher cortex online, you line up the facts, then it's sort of like this war between your Higher Self, your wise mind, your your smart mind, their rational mind, and the amygdala inside that little fight, flight or freeze that is emotionally attached, and you think you're in love, but that is just an attachment. So, in my book, I talk about it clarity, in terms of getting clear with your rational mind. So the rational and then you have to basically drag yourself through the process of getting free. Because your emotional mind is gonna go crazy when you try to separate.

Steve Altishin  
Yeah, you also talk about boundaries and creating them. It's not necessarily just with that person. I mean, it's like, sort of being able to do that.

Shannon Petrovich  
Yeah, it's not an easy thing if you're not used to doing that. And so first of all, you have to recognize what do I think and feel and want and need. And that's a hard journey in and of itself. For a lot of people, they focus so much externally, that they don't even know those four things. So in my book, I do a lot of journal writing prompts, so that you are encouraged to get in touch with who you are and what you're about, and what you want and think and what and your character qualities, because the other thing in our culture that stinks is that we think that we are, what we look like, or our bank account, or our, our likes on Facebook, or what have you. Those things do not define us, but we think they do. So when you start to redefine yourself as your values and your character qualities and you start to care about yourself, then you can stand up for yourself and your boundaries when someone is abusive verbally, or physically, then you're able to say, I'll talk to you later, I'm not going to put up with that anymore. I don't want to be treated that way anymore. I'm not going to listen to you, when you talk to me that way. We can try again later. Again, sometimes people say I'm sorry. I agree I was offensive, and I won't talk to you that way anymore. Sometimes they escalate. And then you know that that person's not interested in you showing up fully and this relationship.

Steve Altishin  
You mentioned earlier with other was really interesting about well, even if you've been physically separated for a while and still talking about it. And that made me think, you know, in our business line of business, we get a lot of post divorce, post separation, co parenting or even not co parenting issues that it's like, they're divorced, and they're physically separated, but they're not emotionally separated. So can you kind of talk a little bit about that, that, you know, the physically separated versus emotionally separated? thing?

Shannon Petrovich  
Yeah, that is such a challenge. And in co parenting or other issues, oftentimes, you do have to stay in some type of relationship with that person. And so then it's really, really critical that you emotionally separate and emotionally distance yourself, and be able to watch the circus go by, and not jump in the cage. So that you, you really know, okay, this is who I am, this is what I'm about. And all of that behavior is that person. And that is not about me, and I'm not going to get sucked into it, and I'm not going to react to it. All I need to do is, you know, swap the kids out at McDonald's. And that's it, I don't want to engage in conversation. But we can, you know, actually get good at taking care of ourselves even within that relationship. distantly, right. So learning to emotionally distance has to do with really all the rebuilding. And the last part of my book is all about rebuilding, we have to rebuild our sense of self, we have to rebuild our passions and our wants and our needs and our feelings, we have to rebuild our sense of what we want in our lives, our goals, our dreams. And all of that needs to be rebuilt. And sometimes we have to rebuild our whole tribe. You know, sometimes people lose all their people in a divorce situation, because everybody lines up with that person who's super charismatic, and they leave you and dust. And that's a terrible, terrible thing. But if you have a passion and volunteer for that passion, you're gonna find other people who have that passion, too. So there are lots and lots of ways to create a new tribe. And it's just important that you take the time to do that, because people who don't do the rebuilding process, jump back into toxic relationships. And that's really tragic.

Steve Altishin  
That leads to kind of that question, and like you said, it was kind of the last party book is, is that all sounds wonderful. And I'm in and we're talking and, you know, I want to do that, you know, how do I start? How do I start rebuilding myself or rebuilding others? I mean, how do I, you know, what are some things I could do?

Shannon Petrovich  
Right. And I think one of the most important projects that of journaling that you do first is to write out the things that you do say inside your own head all day, every day. And then write out the truths about you. And sometimes people have a hard time with that. And they have to consult their people, you know, talk to your best friend, or somebody who really loves you and knows you and say, what is it that you love about me, you know, and so you can, again, from a values and character based perspective, regain a sense of self, well, am I really caring, compassionate person, I'm very loyal and very dedicated. I am hardworking, you know, so those character qualities are who you really are. And then these other things are lies. A lot of times there lies that you learned in childhood, whether it's that, you know, there was chaos at home, or there were toxic relationships in childhood, those lies don't come out of nowhere, typically. And sometimes nobody's said that to you directly. It's just how you felt. So you have to kind of write out the lies and then write out the truths, and then start to superimpose and, and become your own best friends, that you're caring for yourself on a deeper level. And that gives you the ability to step back from somebody else's toxicity. And then you can watch it and notice it and not get drawn into it.

Steve Altishin  
Once you've kind of gotten there, and it feels like I've figured out who I am maybe, and I've at least been able to emotionally distance myself from people who I shouldn't be. That's not the end, is it? Is this? Or is this more of an ongoing process that because you know, you're gonna probably jump into another relationship, jump may not be the right word, but you don't I mean, and how do you make sure that you just don't fall back into that?

Shannon Petrovich  
Yeah, it is very hard. And, and that was one of the things I My first job was in domestic violence, domestic violence shelter, and it was tragic and shocking to me that a lot of the women that came out of an abusive situation, you know, six months later, we're getting involved with somebody else. And they were in the love bombing phase, and going no, no, this is different. And then tragically, a few months after that, they would show up again, so it's so critical, it's so critical that you do the rebuilding, and then the better you take care of yourself, the sharper your creepo meter is. So we have a video called How to develop a trustworthy creepo meter. And the one thing that will set it off, so we have to develop a good creepo meter. And that is that we're taking such good care of ourselves that if somebody is off, and says something that's rude or devaluing, or they even treat the waitstaff in a really degrading way, you know, because how we do one thing is how we do everything, and how we do one relationship. That's how we do all relationships. A lot of people say, you know, if he doesn't treat my dog, well, it's He's toast. And I agree with, you know, if somebody can be cruel to somebody, or their, their humor is all about being cruel to other people, you're creepo meter should go off. And you should say, I'm gonna step back here and just not be a part of this, and not attach myself to this person. And again, you can play nicely in the sandbox if you have to. But you don't have to get attached to that person. You don't have to share your deepest, darkest, because they're not sharing. They're not asking because they care. They're asking for ammunition to use against you later. So the healthier we get, the better we do at sussing out other people. And like I said, it takes time to get to know someone. And so don't get attached, too quickly. Take your time.

Steve Altishin  
We're almost out of time run through time. But I do want to talk about about because you talked a little bit about being in physical abuse, and and emotional abuse. I mean, I kind of the importance of getting out of it. Can that kind of abusive relationship turn physical? Is that something that if you don't start to try to handle it, it can get much, much worse?

Shannon Petrovich  
Absolutely. And one of the things that is true is that, like I said, that big smorgasbord of manipulations. If if these strategies work, then everybody's happy. If those stopped working, then they might escalate to something more. And so typically, things get more dangerous as a person separates. And that's why you want to make sure that as you're setting boundaries, maybe you start by doing that on the phone, I don't like the way you're talking to me. i We can try again later by and hanging up as they escalate. You know that that's really a toxic relationship so you can be a more danger when you try to leave. You have to Be willing to call the police and get to safety and take care of yourself. It's really critical. But toxic relationships can actually make you so sick internally, that I've known a lot of people who are suicidal, in the space of that toxic relationship that's more emotionally toxic. And so when people are anxious and depressed and suicidal, oftentimes, it's because somebody is emotionally beating them down constantly. And they feel like they've ceased to exist. And they kind of feel like well, I might as well just end it. And so that is deadly as well. And like you said, in the very beginning, the physical abuse is almost clear to people, it's like, oh, well, if you hit me, I'd get out. But that constant beating you down is so harmful, that you're actually in as much danger in that situation.

Steve Altishin  
I think that's incredibly important to understand, I really, really do. And going to maybe, at the end here, a little lighter touch before we go. And before, I'm going to ask you to let people know how to get a hold of you is I love your crypto meters. And so if we were to leave with one piece of advice, my kind of question here would be what is on everybody's creepo meter? I mean, what is the one thing that you know, if that's on it, get the heck out?

Shannon Petrovich  
Oh, boy, you know, I don't think anybody's really very good at this. But I think if somebody is being cruel to anybody in your world, that should be a big indication. Because oftentimes, a person will say, Well, you don't understand them like I do, they would never hurt me. I know they hurt that person or that person, but they would never hurt me. That should you, your alarm bells should be going off in your own head. But if somebody around you says that, remind them that's not true. The way somebody does relationships is the way they do relationships.

Steve Altishin  
I love what you said, you know, if someone is being cruel to the waiter, they're gonna be cold to you. Eventually, absolutely. So we're gonna have to go. But before we go, please let people know how they can get ahold of you.

Shannon Petrovich  
My landing pages, nofoggydays.com or therapisttalks.com. And that will get you to my website where there are tons of different things and resources of all sorts. So you'll see podcasts like this, and my book link and the links to my YouTube channel therapist talks.

Steve Altishin  
I love it. Well, thank you, Shannon for being so kind to come today to sit down to talk with us about really an important topic that doesn't get talked about a lot because I think it gets bowled over by the physical abuse. And that's the emotional abuse emotional ties, how to get away from those emotional ties. And then we like you said, Build yourself. So thank you so much for talking about that today.

Shannon Petrovich  
Thanks so much for having me, Steve. It's been a pleasure.

Steve Altishin  
It's been a real pleasure. And thank you everyone else for joining us today. If anyone has any further questions on today's topic, you can obviously contact Shannon, and until next time, stay safe, stay happy and be well.

Outro:
This has been Modern Family Matters, a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Pacific Cascade Legal, serving families in Oregon and Washington. If you are in need of legal counsel or have additional questions about a family law matter important to you, please visit our websites at pacificcascadelegal.com or pacificcascadefamilylaw.com. You can also call our headquarters at (503) 227-0200 to schedule a case evaluation with one of our seasoned attorneys. Modern Family Matters, advocating for your better tomorrow and offering legal solutions important to the modern family.