How to Safely Break Free From a Financially Abusive Relationship & Regain Control of Your Life

Join us as we sit down with Certified Divorce Financial Analyst and Founder of the non-profit organization, Savvy Ladies, Stacy Francis, to discuss how women in financially abusive relationships can safely break free and establish financial independence.

If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.

To learn more about Stacy can help you, you can visit her websites: https://www.savvyladies.org/stacy-financial-advice/ and https://francisfinancial.com/

Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.

Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you. Covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters, with expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests, we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's your host, Steve Altishin.

Steve Altishin  
Hi, I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships at Pacific Cascade Legal. And today, I'm here with Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, Stacy Francis, to discuss the danger signs of financially abusive relationship, and how to break free and recover financial control of your life. So Stacy, how you doing today?

Stacy Francis  
I'm doing great. And I just want to say and applaud you for taking on a really important but tough topic.

Steve Altishin  
Yeah, yeah, I was going through our outline, and it's it's tough stuff, it really is. Which leads me kind of into, before we start, I'm going to ask you to tell us a little bit about yourself, and also, what a certified divorce financial analyst is. 

Stacy Francis  
Of course, of course. So I am no stranger to financial abuse, I watched my grandmother in a abusive marriage, growing up, both physically as well as financially. And it was a real wake up call for me as a young little girl, to learn how important money is for for anyone, but especially for women, and how money can actually be used as a tool as a weapon to control people. And that's actually what happened for her. I became a certified divorce financial analyst. And while she never actually divorced my, my grandfather, I became absolutely committed to helping women who were able to do that, that that had the support to be able to break free, so that they could move towards a place of financial empowerment and security. Because that is the primary reason that women stay is that, again, if you have financial abuse, you don't have access to the finances. And so it becomes even much harder to stay. So that is a big part of my life. And the practice that I have at Francis financial is working with women thinking about or going through divorce. Not all of them are financial abuse, survivors, but many are. And most importantly, they want to make sure that they and their children are going to be financially safe and sound.

Steve Altishin  
This is perfect to talk about this, this is one that we've not really been able to do because it is sort of under appreciated, what it really is, it feels like, and so I'm gonna ask kind of the obvious first question, kind of what is financial abuse? How does it get acknowledged?

Stacy Francis  
Yeah, see, if I mean, you really, you really hit it on the head that financial abuse is a type of abuse that goes really unrecognized and often it's not spoken about starting to abuse more so but it's present in relationships where there is a person who's trying to control the other person, their goal is to manipulate, intimidate, you know, threaten the victim in order to entrap them in that relationship. And so it most often occurs in situations where there is also physical abuse or emotional abuse. In fact, it presents itself in 98%, of domestic violence, physical domestic violence cases. And what we often find is that financial abuse and that controlling, it's the gateway to other types of abuse. So many women it started with, you know, not having access to the checkbook. And then a good number of those cases actually go into physical abuse. So knowing the signs is really important.

Steve Altishin  
So let's just talk about a couple of examples of financial abuse that goes on.

Stacy Francis  
Yeah, they're definitely not having access to accounts not having access to money, having a budget that's being imposed upon them that is so restrictive, that it's not livable. The person who is the abuser wants that because then the victim is having to constantly ask them for money, being at the checkout and not sure if you have enough money for the groceries that you have, and having to, you know, show that almost submissive, submissive subservient role to that person who again is, you know, pulling the strings of the finances, we also can see it, not allowing the person to work, or if they are working sabotaging them by showing up at work, one of our clients, her husband took away the keys and said, you have to walk to work. So if you really want your own money, you figure out how to get to work. You know, these are some of the signs that you can see, we even will see loans being taken out in the survivors name without them knowing, by essentially forging forging their name, and really taking, you know, taking their credit and taking out credit cards in their name, loans in their name, and then just devastating their credit score further, making them dependent on the abuser. Wow,

Steve Altishin  
It feels so much like the exact same motives inside a person who is a physical abuser. It's that same power, you know, dichotomy.

Stacy Francis  
Yeah, and often money can be used, then, as another weapon, we think of abuse as your you're hitting someone as your weapon. Here, we're using money as your weapon, which can be just as painful. And, you know, I have clients where we're going through the divorce process, and he's bullying her saying that I made all this money, you did not. So you get nothing from the divorce. And that's where having a fantastic lawyer that understands the laws of their state, and also understands abusive relationships, that you work with that person, because that is not the case. But it's very hard to stand up to your abuser, when they are threatening that they're going to cut you off or that they'll say untrue, negative things about your children. Going through that can be just very difficult.

Steve Altishin  
So you are going to the side here, you are someone who's stuck can step in with people and the very early part of this process. It's not as if it's okay, now the divorce is over. Now. Let me try to clean up the mess kind of thing.

Stacy Francis  
Yes, so you are right, Steve. So we work quite uniquely in a way where we will actually work with a woman and I say a woman because almost all of our clients are women through the divorce process. And we charge hourly, we actually will testify in court, if needed as an expert witness. And then we also work with our clients ongoing in a more typical way you would expect as a financial advisor, as a percentage of the assets that we're managing for her. Not everybody has significant financial means and Frances financial, most of the women we work with, they have significant means they're walking away with from that marriage with a portfolio of $2 million or more. And that's why I really want to make sure everybody knows about savvy ladies as that resource because savvy ladies works with all women, whether you have $1 in your pocket, or you do not. And we have over 200 financial experts, about 40 of them are certified divorce financial analysts, that you can work free of charge through our helpline. And you can go to www savvy ladies.org to get that support, and to be able to reach out to someone. And they actually have been specially trained in the area of financial abuse as well, because so many of our clients that reach out to savvy ladies face that.

Steve Altishin  
So if someone comes into you, and they start talking, and they say I don't I don't I don't think I'm the victim of financial abuse. I just I don't know. What should I look for one of those sorts of danger signs that make me realize, oh, maybe I am being financially abused?

Stacy Francis  
Yeah, there's a lot of questions. You know, are you having to ask for money from your spouse to pay everyday bills? Are they monitoring their spending one of our clients every time she had an expense on the credit card, he got a notification because he set it up and then immediately would be asking her what she's doing. Are they making investments without consulting you? Are they discouraging you from furthering your career or, you know, actually going back into the job market? Or they forbidding you from working or preventing you having access to checking accounts, savings accounts, retirement accounts? Are they using your credit? And and using your credit to be able to open different credit lines? In Your name? Maybe even jointly with you? Are you signing your tax return? Or again? Are they signing it for you? So, you know, these, these are all things and typically, Steve, financial abuse is, is, over time, it doesn't typically happen all of a sudden, the abuser starts to do this very slowly. And often they will tell the person you know what, I'll pay the bills, I know how busy you are, I know how stressed out it makes you, which sounds okay, right. But that's then can be in certain relationships, then a step that starts this process that leaves her completely outside have any knowledge or access to the finances,

Steve Altishin  
It's a weird thing to say, but it's almost like they're training you to be a victim.

Stacy Francis  
They are and can be, you know, you're not good with money, right? You know, you're not good with this stuff, right? Leave it to me, hearing that you're bad with money. That's why I have you on a strict budget. And eventually, over time, we can start to believe that. We can start to believe that and it's very hard to remove yourself from that situation. And I will tell you, the thing to Steve is, we don't talk about this. It's not something that comes up when you know, women are going out for cocktails at night. In fact, she's probably not allowed to go out for cocktails at night anyway. And so she's, it's very hard to realize this as you until you'll read an article or or, or listen to a Facebook live like this, where you realize, oh, my gosh, this is me.

Steve Altishin  
That just made me think of something. So I wasn't going to answer this question, because I didn't even think of it until just now. But is it? Can it be prevented? Is there a a preventative thing that they could do it? Let's say, you know, they come to you before? And it's like, I don't want to become this person? How can I prevent it? Can it could it start almost before it starts.

Stacy Francis  
So abuser is an abuser, and you know, there there definitely are signs during the dating. And you know the relationship, but what I tell all women, whether you're in a difficult relationship like this, or you know, a healthy, happy relationship with your partner, always stay involved with the finances. And I say that also for for not only for you, but also for your spouse. And I know this because I've talked to so many people who are the breadwinners for their family 100% solely responsible for the finances.

Steve Altishin  
And it's a big job.

Stacy Francis  
And it's can be a stressful job. And I know the way that my husband and I work is that we co manage the finances. And we're always going back and forth of what you know, what are we doing with this? What are we doing with that we do date nights every single month. On those financial date nights, we're looking at the upcoming expenses. So right now the kids tuition bill was one of the things we were talking about in our last piece of like, okay, this is what's it's due on this day, from which account should it come from. And then we also decided that instead of having a huge vacation this summer, that we were going to pull it back, visit our family. And we're going to put a little bit more money in our emergency fund. Just because we both that both we decided would make us feel a little bit more confident and secure with you know, all the things that are going around in the world and job loss and things like that. And so staying involved is the best thing you could do for yourself. It's also the best thing you can do for a healthy relationship with your partner.

Steve Altishin  
And that's something a lot of people wouldn't have thought of, or I wouldn't write. I'm not just doing it. For me, I'm doing it for you as well. So I mean, that's kind of cool. But let's say you are now in a bad situation and there's financial abuse. I know one of the things you talk about is it's really hard to break free from being that person, the victim.

Stacy Francis  
It is very hard and the women who have been able to free themselves have been able to put a team around them get the support that they need, and start to put money away and some of the creative ways that our clients have found to be able to scroll I need to the side so that they can hire a lawyer so that they can get the right support is, is really astounding. There are also wonderful organizations that you can reach out to, such as sanctuary for families, helping domestic violence victims, looking at your local shelter for women who are victims of domestic violence, and just going to the abuse helpline. And my hope is, you know, maybe as a resource out, you know, all of you listening can can actually go to that website, it may not be for you. But for other people in your life, it's very important, because I have to tell you that financial abuse can become deadly. A dear friend of mine, she actually was the breadwinner. But yet, she was a survivor of financial abuse, because her husband would have the paycheck that was deposited into their joint account, immediately transferred to his account only. And that came to a climax, where the two of them were fighting. And it became physical. She woke up, her children were crying above her, and the police were there and she had been strangled, and lost consciousness. So getting the help that you need, and getting a plan in action. And the support is really important, because the most dangerous time for a woman is right before she leaves or right after. And so making sure that you're able to do so in a way that is as safe.

Steve Altishin  
How can she then start? I think you'd say get your financial house in order. I mean, start with what do I what what would what would you advise someone to start just right now start doing this, this, this, this and that?

Stacy Francis  
Yeah, great question. I'm going to share stories from women. And all the things they've done, husband comes home, he passes out drunk as he normally does on Saturday night, she takes his phone, uses his face for ID to go through to start to see what financial accounts they have, and what credit cards he has on in his wallet. Another woman, you know, was tracking all the bills that were coming in, and she knew she wasn't allowed to open them. But writing all the financial institutions that they were coming from whether it looked like it was a credit card, checking account, a savings account, a brokerage account, she did the same thing for all the insurances, and that another woman had a certain amount of money for groceries every single week. And she would put a little bit to the side $20 a month, where she would start to put that away. Another woman that we worked with, was just honest and open with her family to explain her situation. And they gave her over $10,000 to number one be able to leave. And number two, to be able to get the counsel and the legal representation that she needed for her and her children. Another woman, you know, went to her local shelter, domestic violence shelter, to stay and live there, and make sure that she had a safe place to be. So these are, you know, many different things that can that can happen. But I do have to say that financial abuse can also happen in high net worth situations, we tend to think as a myth, Steve, that it's the, you know, the low income couple. And that is not always the case. And so knowing that she most likely has the same issues, and lack of access to money, as that woman who may be the family household income is $40,000 a year, those same things that our clients have done, we see that across all different income spectrums from the women who use savvy ladies that are really truly women in need to the women who are quite a fluid through Frances financial, financial abuse does not discriminate according to color of your skin according to religion, or according to your wealth. It is across all of those socio economic groups.

Steve Altishin  
It kind of made me think, well, the internet, and I'm certainly not technologically savvy enough to find out if somebody is doing something but I know a lot of people are. So I'm kind of wondering is if someone says, Well, I'm gonna go on the internet and I'm gonna do all these things to try to find out. They should be kind of careful, shouldn't they?

Stacy Francis  
Well, you know, you can find out so if you go to the National Domestic Violence Hotline, if I'm correct on on that they, there's a way that you can actually not have it be in your search history. Oops. And or, and or maybe you go to the library, and you look up resources via the library versus your phone or your local home computer. But the other thing you can do is you can call from a friend's phone. And it's just so all of you, if you do have a pen, it's 800-799-7233. Again, 800-799-7233 that is the National Domestic Violence helpline, and they have fantastic resources for you. And any language that you need to speak to a representative and they also have available.

Steve Altishin  
I know you talk a lot about team. And you talked about a little bit earlier putting together a team that may be that you need to take control of your life, it's not just first of all you alone, and maybe not even just you and the person there are there's there's a team around there professionals that you can put together that that can help isn't there.

Stacy Francis  
There is and, you know, the people I think of as most important on that team is definitely your lawyer, your financial professional. And the piece that very few people talk about is your mental health support, not only for yourself, but also for your children. My father is a survivor of a abusive father, he grew up in that household with my grandmother, and if there is physical abuse of the spouse, typically it is also they they target their children. And he has suffered in ways that I can never imagine someone having to suffer, of having to live through that not only himself be physically harmed, but also seeing, you know, the woman he loved most growing up his mother. And so having support from a mental health perspective for yourself, as well as for your children is really key. And what's wonderful about the domestic violence helpline they can find these resources for you, both in your town, whether it's full pay, whether it's low pay, whether it's no pay, there's a lot of resources for you,

Steve Altishin  
the attorney, and the therapist, counselor. There's divorce coaches who do great jobs. And obviously you the financial planner, the especially that gets divorces and understands the problems with them are all wonderful. Do they ever work together? And I don't I guess by that I mean, not necessarily that one hires the other something like that as much as kind of connected knowing what the other person is doing.

Stacy Francis  
Yeah, yeah, I will tell you, I do. Maybe not everyone does. But the best thing you can have is your financial professional talking with your, you know, your attorney, right? Your matrimonial attorney and having the divorce coach or therapist looped in have a better understanding where she's at the support, she needs, the things that she's worried about, and how we can address them. So I find that it's almost like three legs on a stool. And each one of them has a very important role. And that stool would not stand without one of them. Right? It would tip over if it was just too. So yes, having those professionals work together, at least my approach is, the more that we can collaborate, the better job are going to do for her. And actually, the stronger her representation and the better outcome she's going to have.

Steve Altishin  
Yeah, that makes sense. Because the, you know, as attorneys, you know, we can go and get temporary orders and get temporary support orders or money freeze are lots of different kinds of orders. But that doesn't mean we have all the financial info. And that's where you come in. I mean, it's, you know, we can get one but how much should we be getting? I mean, what are what does that financial need? And that's where you can step in?

Stacy Francis  
Yeah. And for us, what we'll do is we can actually model out what that financial need looks like and if she is not the breadwinner, or he because this happens for both men and women. But we can model out what does child support need to be What does spousal support some, some states will call it alimony. What does that need to be based on their lifestyle and based on their expenses not only today, but in the future as the children grow? What I have found about kids, firstly, is that when you first have them you think they're expensive, but then when they become teenagers less than you really realize they're expensive. So you know really thinking about that in our planning is shortening key, because there are a lot of expenses that aterial doesn't have. But a 16 year old does, when it comes to orthodontia, learning to drive just all those things, making sure that we're thinking about that or thinking about the future, so that the negotiation and the settlement agreement that you're drafting can really cover those future situations so that they don't have to come back to court, they don't have to come back because of disagreements in the future.

Steve Altishin  
That is such great advice. You know, I, I have done some Facebook Lives, which are basically I wish they did come to me with their divorce settlement before they signed, and it that kind of a thing. I mean, if you can get a hold of it, and, and talk through it, you know, maybe the husband is saying, Hey, you get that property, you're gonna take that property. And I'll take this and then they're the same. You can look at it go, Oh, stop. Maybe they're not exactly.

Stacy Francis  
Yeah, right. Yeah, it's very rare that apples or apples, it's usually, you know, apples and bananas, and people will look at an account that has, let's say, $100,000 in it, that's a 401 K retirement account. And then they'll look at another account, that is a checking account, that's 100,000. And, and he says, You know what? You're behind in retirement. So you take the retirement account, and I'll take the checking account. But she may not realize or the person advising her may not realize that every dollar she takes out 40 cents goes to the government through federal, state, local Social Security and Medicare. So that's really $60,000 in that retirement account. And he's walking away with a tax free checking account of $100,000 that he can use whatever he wants to use it for and be footloose and fancy free. I've seen some really naughty things happen. And it's why having the proper legal record representation. And if you have a complex divorce, a certified divorce financial analyst, because once you sign that agreement, you signed it.

Steve Altishin  
Yeah, yeah, right. Exactly. Right. And especially when it comes to money and property issues, there are not things you can go back and change. Very easy.

Stacy Francis  
Exactly. Steve, you can go and petition, child support, petition, spousal support or alimony, but when to sign that settlement agreement for equal distribution, you know, unless there has been gross misrepresentation, or on purpose, hidden assets, it you know, as you know, Steve, it's very hard to reopen that case to start that negotiation again.

Steve Altishin  
Wow, we just blew through 30 minutes.

Stacy Francis  
I know. And I have to say, I know that this is such a difficult topic. But I really enjoyed talking about this. And Steve, I also have to say, the question you asked for very insightful, because sometimes people will blame the survivor of why didn't she leave? Why didn't she see the signs? Why did and we, you know, we need to as a society realize that this is not her fault. This is not if you know, it is the victim as a male, and we have a client who was a victim of financial abuse, a lovely gentleman, and his wife was the abuser. And it was not his fault, either. Was not you know, and us learning how to help recognize this, whether it's on our own situation, or our loved ones, situations or friends. And then knowing how to step in and support and offer resources is what I'm so so happy about this face book live for because it's going to be giving tools to people to make sure that they even those that maybe can't speak up right now. Other speak up for them and help them.

Steve Altishin  
I love it. Thank you so much. And before we do leave, would you like to give, is there any info you can give in terms of how to contact you? 

Stacy Francis  
Exactly. So if you are looking for ongoing wealth management and financial planning, and you have a lot of complex issue, assets or significant assets of $2 million or more, Frances financial is the right fit for you and we're the top certified divorce financial analyst firm pretty much in the country. But if that's not you, or you're just not ready to engage a financial advisor, but need questions answered, then go to savvy ladies.org Ww savvy ladies.org and you'll see there are 200 different financial literacy courses that you can take. It's phenomenal. There's a huge section On our website also about divorce and finance. And most importantly, you'll see that there is a helpline that you can work one on one with a certified divorce financial analyst to answer your questions. And what's even more powerful is that we just launched an app. So you can go on your phone now, download the app from the App Store savvy ladies.org. And you can get connected to a financial expert in five minutes. right on your phone. So it's pretty, it's pretty cool, Steve. I couldn't be happier. And I couldn't be more proud. And I'm just again, want to say truly from the bottom of my heart, thank you for talking about this topic and really unearthing something that's so important.

Steve Altishin  
Oh, well, I I love this kind of stuff to talk about. And you know, any other time you want to come on and talk about something. I'm good to go.

Stacy Francis  
I would love that. Steve, I love what you're doing. Oh, good.

Steve Altishin  
I think you and I better get off before I get yelled at. It's time to go. But thank you so much for being here today. Thank you, and everyone else. Thank you for joining us. So until next time, stay safe, stay happy and be well.

Outro:
This has been Modern Family Matters, a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Pacific Cascade Legal, serving families in Oregon and Washington. If you are in need of legal counsel or have additional questions about a family law matter important to you, please visit our websites at pacificcascadelegal.com or pacificcascadefamilylaw.com. You can also call our headquarters at (503) 227-0200 to schedule a case evaluation with one of our seasoned attorneys. Modern Family Matters, advocating for your better tomorrow and offering legal solutions important to the modern family.