In this podcast episode, we sit down with Clinical Counselor, Dawn Friedman, to discuss steps parents can start taking now, whether they're approaching or currently navigating a divorce, to help reduce their child's anxiety, and support their mental well-being through difficult transitions. In this interview, Dawn covers the following:
If you would like to speak with one of our family law attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.
If you're interested in getting in touch with Dawn, you can do so by visiting her website: https://childanxietysupport.com/
Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.
In this podcast episode, we sit down with Clinical Counselor, Dawn Friedman, to discuss steps parents can start taking now, whether they're approaching or currently navigating a divorce, to help reduce their child's anxiety, and support their mental well-being through difficult transitions. In this interview, Dawn covers the following:
If you would like to speak with one of our family law attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.
If you're interested in getting in touch with Dawn, you can do so by visiting her website: https://childanxietysupport.com/
Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.
Intro:
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you. Covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters, with expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests, we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's your host, Steve Altishin.
Steve Altishin 0:28
Hi, everyone. I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships here at Pacific Cascade Legal. And today, we have clinical counselor, Dawn Friedman, to discuss what parents can do when they're approaching or navigating a divorce to help reduce their child's anxiety and support their mental well being. So before we start on this, Dawn, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you kind of came to be where you are now?
Dawn Friedman 0:58
Yeah, thanks for asking. So I've been a therapist now for 10 years. And before that I was a family case manager, I was a parent educator, I was a childcare site director, a lot of different stuff, working with families and kids. And now I also run child anxiety support, which is a membership site to help support parents of anxious children, which is what brought me to you.
Steve Altishin 1:20
Thank you so much. And, you know, anxious kids, anxious parents, divorce, they kind of go together. It's like an old fashioned, three ingredients that always go together. And I hear a lot of parents whose marriage, you know, they're falling apart, but they keep saying, oh, we need to stay together for the sake of the kids and it's just terrible for the kids. You can't get divorced. How would you respond to that?
Dawn Friedman 1:48
You know, I appreciate where they're coming from. We want to give our kids a perfect smooth life. But that's not realistic. And from my point of view, happy healthy parents make for happy, healthy kids. So if the parents are not doing well in a partnership together, and can be happier and healthier apart, my feeling is that is a better choice for kids. And I say this as a child of divorce, who I am grateful that my parents got divorced, they were better off apart. And they were better parents to us, when they were able to take good care of themselves and have better relationships than they were able to have with each other.
Steve Altishin 2:28
Well, that makes sense. I imagine, kind of looking through the looking glass, it's hard for a lot of parents to see that. But it really is true. We see that even on the legal side. Sure. Let's talk about, you know, when a child's anxiety increases from a divorce, it seems that we see also that that really increases the anxiety and the effect on the parents as well.
Dawn Friedman 3:00
Yeah, absolutely. And there's a couple of reasons for that. One is that anxiety is catching, it is meant to be catching. So if you think about at the core anxiety is supposed to alert us to danger so we can keep ourselves safe. So the example that I always give families is if you see gazelles at a watering hole, and a lion is creeping up, one of the gazelles will pop its head up, and then the whole herd does. And that's because they're catching the anxiety. So if you are anxious about changes in your family, and divorce is a big change, so it would be weird to not be anxious about it, let's just normalize that. Of course, you're going to be anxious. So is your child going to be anxious, and then you're probably going to catch each other's anxiety, which kind of means a double dose of anxiety. So that's one reason. And the other reason is if you have a child who is prone to anxiety, there is a genetic component to that. People with anxious brains usually come from parents with anxious brains. And then also we sort of teach each other to be anxious. So if I'm afraid of spiders, and I jump up and scream every time I see a spider, my kids are gonna go, I get it, we see spiders, we jump up and scream. So if we have an anxious parent, chances are they have an anxious kid for that reason, too. So there's that, it's almost like a triple whammy of anxiety, like anxiety squared.
Steve Altishin 4:19
Wow. Is there a, well how do I put this, also a component of being alone or not having support that kind of feeds into that anxiousness or just other people nitpicking at you during especially kind of looking at the divorce situation?
Dawn Friedman 4:41
Yeah, you know, divorce really requires that we sort of reset our support systems. And I think about this, and something I noticed even as a child, is my mom was the first woman in her circle to get a divorce. And so I saw the way this shifted her friendships and her support system, not just as a person, but as a parent. And so I think that's the kind of thing we can expect too and that is also anxiety provoking. And then people are often critical of these choices. And when we're people are being critical, and then we're getting defensive, or they're giving advice that you didn't ask for, it's really easy to start doubting ourselves. So that creates a lot of anxiety. And parents, too, I think the answer to that is, is to find that support team, find those people who can appreciate growth as a goal, because that's the I think, in a best case scenario, divorce allows people to grow in new ways. So find people who are going to support you in that growth, weren't going to see this as a tragedy, who can give you room for any grief you might have, that can support you, because that's going to help you to support your children. So I think it's really important that it's that oxygen mask thing that parents take good care of themselves, in order to take good care of their children. And if your kids act up, which lesson they're going to, because this is a big change, you need people who aren't going to go see it was a mistake, what you did was a mistake instead go with course, of course, this is a stressful situation, your kid may not be at their best during the divorce, or during the adjustment after doesn't mean it was a mistake, doesn't mean it was a bad thing.
Steve Altishin 6:23
Yeah, I know. But what happens, it seems like, is the parents tend to blame themselves.
Dawn Friedman 6:30
Oh, sure.
Steve Altishin 6:31
And so if I'm coming in to you, and I'm saying, you know, I'm stressed out and my kids are stressed out, and it's all my fault. You know, what can you tell?
Dawn Friedman 6:44
Oh, my gosh, you know, I think about how often we'll take the blame for kids struggles, and we won't take credit for when they're doing really well. But life is complicated. And I don't know anybody who gets through it without challenges. So I think the goal is to teach your children how to manage those inevitable challenges, they're gonna go through tough times, because of decisions they make about their own lives, too. We want to show them how to be resilient. And resiliency has to do with emotional regulation, taking good care of our feelings, taking good care of our complicated feelings, that doesn't mean ignoring them, or pushing them away away, it means taking care of them. So emotional regulation, by its believing in our ability to impact our situation. So you can help your child do that by let's say, if you're moving out of the house, letting them decorate their new room, letting them make some small decisions as life changes, so that they feel like they do have an impact on their life. And then the third thing is relationships. So if you continue to nurture your relationship with your child, those three things are what are going to create resiliency in your kid. Not that they never have trials and tribulations, but that when they have inevitable trials and tribulations, they have the those three keys to learn how to deal with it. So when your kid is struggling, instead of blaming yourself, I hope that that you can see, dear parent, this is your opportunity to show your child how to overcome tough times, because we're all going to have tough times.
Steve Altishin 8:20
Yeah, that is the truth. A lot of times we find that one of the parents, and you know, sometimes it's absolutely correct, and sometimes it's a little more iffy, tthey believe that the other, they're having to do everything. they're having to step up, and the other parent isn't stepping up. And they kind of get into the mentality that they have to fix everything. And it feels sometimes like that transfers on to the kid.
Dawn Friedman 8:54
Yeah, I was just talking to somebody about this. So if you could have made the situation with the other parent, amazing, imperfect and control that then maybe you would have stayed in the relationship. I hope that you that you know now that you cannot control this other person. And because you're no longer with them, you don't have to write you you truly can see, their house is their house, my house is my house, the way they do things is apparent the way I do things as a parent. Now, in a perfect world. Yeah, you guys would be on the same page and you'd be co parenting, it'd be so perfect. You'd be able to negotiate everything, but this is real life. And in real life. Things are gonna be different in the two households as a child of divorce, who remembers it being different, we can handle that. We can tell that dad does things one that way mom does things another way that we get that it's different in different homes, so you don't have to worry about it being exact. You be the best parent you can be in your home with your child and then support them and learning how to navigate the differences. So If that is their other parent, that other parent belongs to the child, and your child's relationship with that other parent is totally separate from your relationship to that parent, which is good news because you don't have to feel responsible anymore. You don't have to try to manage it anymore. You just support your kid and figuring it out for themselves. That can be complicated, get help, if you're struggling with that, or need somebody to help process it with you.
Steve Altishin 10:24
Oh, my gosh, that makes sense. Here's one that really we see a parent can get in the middle of and kind of not know how to get out of it. It's that they are being told, well you need to care about the kids. You know, they're having struggles with their ex, they're going through divorce, and if they complain about it, or if they talk about it, or if they've tried to figure out what to do, you know, a lot of people will then put in, well hold on, you need to care more about the kids, you know? You're not caring enough about the kids in this thing. And I don't know if that's true, do you?
Dawn Friedman 11:08
Yeah, I don't understand why people, it frustrates me that people are always willing to offer that kind of criticism, but not offer support. So if their concern is that you're not doing as well by the kids, as you could have a face step up, right, it takes a village. So I think for example, what happens sometimes is, as a parent is shifting things, maybe they're going back to work after not being at work for a while, or they're making new friends, or they've joined a new club, or they're dating or whatever it is that they're doing. And people say, What about the kids? What about the kids? Listen, yes, keep your kids at the forefront of your decision making. But you are a whole person who deserves attention and care, and the ability to learn new things and be a new person. I believe that that balance is absolutely 100% possible. And again, you need people in your life that will support you in that. So if they're worried you're leaving the kids alone, maybe they should step up and babysit, if they think you should be cooking at home, or maybe they could bring over a meal for you, for you and your kids. There. You can say to them, Listen, before you criticize me, let me know how you're going to help me in these ways that you feel like I need support. I don't think it's fair for people to just come at parents that way.
Steve Altishin 12:26
That kind of leads back to something that I actually saw on your website, which is, oh, my gosh, you know what I love about your website is you have your podcast, at least partially printed out, and it's easy to access. And I'm reading it going oh, this is great stuff. But getting back to one of the things you said was, and it kind of falls into this, is that people feel like, you know, they're always being told it's their fault. Their fault as to what's going on to the kid. And you had a great comeback on that and said, you know, these things can happen these, like you said, it's a time of you know, kids can have real issues. But it doesn't mean it's your fault. But it is your responsibility. Yeah, I thought that was a wonderful comment.
Dawn Friedman 13:20
Yeah, so because people always ask is my child's anxiety, my fault? And I say, No, it's not your fault. But the parent is going to have to be the one who changes things up because kids are kids. And they're really not capable of doing the kind of big personal change that we want them to do. And it's actually why it shifted my practice from working with kids directly, and working with parents directly. Because I realized, I need to work with the parents to help them figure out how to take good care of their themselves, how to create a healthy culture in their home. And that is what is ultimately going to change their child's behavior. But the other thing I tell people is your parenting is not the problem. It's the solution. Because people think I've been parenting wrong, I've been parenting wrong, instead of saying, my relationship with my child is powerful. How can I shift things in my relationship with my child to improve things in the parenting? So it's not that you've been doing things wrong, it's that maybe you need to do things in a different way. Now, lots of times it's because the way we've been parenting was working. And then our kid outgrew it. And we're not sure how to outgrow it with our child, how to, to up our game a little bit. And I can remember that with my own kids, they'd hit a new stage and I'd go I don't know how to parent this stage. It's because I had to parent differently, but it doesn't mean that what I was doing before was wrong. It just didn't work anymore for this new stage in parenting.
Steve Altishin 14:48
So let's kind of get to what kind of things can help and this is where you obviously step in. You you talk about it, it takes a village and in And obviously, it's more than just maybe like a therapist, what sort of help is out there? I mean, what kinds of things and like in school or or, you know, like you said, a therapist or you know, anyone I mean, what kind of people should be getting into the mix?
Dawn Friedman 15:23
Well, I think I think reaching out to your child's school is great, because many of them do have resources for kids whose parents are divorcing, because it's super common, it's super common. So they can help especially if your child is younger, making sure that they're connecting with other kids are having similar experience. So they have lunch bunches, or after school clubs or things. So reaching out to the school is great. And also to let them know if your child is struggling a little bit with the transition, that people are aware of that or if there is some tension between you and your child's other parent, they can be aware of that too, because they can, they can help you through some of this. So I would definitely reach out to the child's school. The other thing is, I would look for support groups. And depending on where you are in the country, a lot of support groups are online now because you deserve people who appreciate what you're doing, and have been there done that. And you should get to be have been there done that for somebody else, because it feels really good to also be a support system. For somebody else. It's a reminder that you are a strong person with with wisdom and information. And then as to therapy, I don't think I get a lot of parents who call and immediately want to get their child into therapy for divorce, I don't think it's always necessary. Divorce is not necessarily a traumatic event that requires therapy. Now, if your child is really struggling, if you feel overwhelmed with your child struggling, by all means, reach out to a therapist. But again, I don't necessarily think every single kid whose parents are divorcing automatically should get a diagnosis of mental health diagnosis and get help that way. But if you are struggling, I would think about therapy for you, including if you're struggling with your parenting, because again, if you're struggling with your parenting, the solution is often how can you do things differently? Not how can you make your child do things differently. So reach out, see what resources there are, talk to a therapist that's local to you and can talk about what's going on. My program is specifically for people who are parenting children, who either meet criteria for anxiety diagnosis, or who are just so anxious, they're driving their parents a little crazy. And there are other programs like mine, too, for different situations in different kids, there is a lot out there, you might have to look for it.
Steve Altishin 17:44
Look into what you do. So I come into your, in this day and age may not have come into your office, or we're talking like we are now. And I say just that my kids are just super anxious all the time it's happened since the divorce started. Where do you start with them? I mean, kind of goes through your process a little bit?
Dawn Friedman 18:07
Sure. So the very first thing is people can make, they can do a console call with me. And it is just like this, it can be on the phone or on Zoom. Because this program is virtual. So wherever you are, you can do it with me. And that's the first thing we do is you tell me what's going on with your child. And I tell you a little bit more about the program. And together we decide does this make sense? Or do I have some other ideas that maybe you should try first. So for example, sometimes I'm talking to a parent, and I say, you know, I think maybe an occupational therapy evaluation might be the first step before you come to me. That's just an example. But so we talk a little bit, you asked me questions, I asked you questions. And then the first thing that happens when you come into the program is you take an anxiety screener for your child, and also for yourself, so we can be really clear what's happening for both of you, and start creating a program that's going to be personalized for you.
Steve Altishin 19:05
I was just gonna ask that. I was thinking, How do I know? I mean, what if I don't know if there's suffering for anxiety? I mean, I know some things are doing. But but you know, what kind of content be off? I mean, there's done a FAQ out there, or is that what this is?
Dawn Friedman 19:24
So the screener is a little bit like that it it tells you kind of raised your kid on it a number of things, but it's really interesting that often a parent will come in to me and report their child is really anxious. We do the screener and the child is not the parent is but that's okay because the program looks at the parents behavior. And it changed helps you change your behavior so that your whole family can work on their anxiety. I would say 95% of the time if the child is anxious, so is at least one of the parents And so that is the other reason they're often anxious about their child's anxiety. So we dig into that. And my program technically, is six weeks, people usually stay in there two to three months, the first 30 days are free. So they can try it out, see if it fits into their life. And some people stick around for a long time, just because they like to be able to check in with me and and say, hey, my kid is doing this thing. What should I do about it? And we do a quick back and forth about it.
Steve Altishin 20:27
You know, obviously, that makes me think that divorce isn't really a static thing. It, it's, you know, kind of leading up to it, it's through the process. It's after the process, and it's after the process at all stages of the child's life. I mean, there's got to be sort of a almost a growth, but it's, it's, it's a moving target sometimes, ya know, anxious.
Dawn Friedman 20:55
Yeah, well, well, and part of that is because developmentally, every time a child moves into a next stage of development, development, they need to learn everything again. So I, my daughter is adopted, and we have a fully open adoption. And her understanding of her open adoption changed over the 18 years that I have been parenting her. So there were many issues that we would revisit at different stages of development, and she had a new perspective, and new feelings, and new complications about so divorce is the same way I think of divorce is a lot like open adoption, because it's complicated family relationships, that we're always trying to negotiate and make good decisions. And those good decisions shift is our kids shift. And again, what made sense when she was eight didn't make sense when she was 14, we all were having to reinvent it all of the time.
Steve Altishin 21:46
It just, it kind of reminds me of my kids, and you know, they eat, they get to a point where they're, you know, unmanageable. Difficult. And you're thinking, Oh, my God, you know, it's kind of like that, that, you know, behavior. What does this mean? Or is this like, you know, anxious, and it made me think, are there different, either kinds of ways of being anxious, or stages of life, where if you do it, when you're a it, maybe it does mean this, but if you do like money, you're 19, it really doesn't necessarily mean that.
Dawn Friedman 22:21
Yes, so if you have a five year old, who's climbing into your bed at night, that's not a typical eight or nine year old, it's getting a little less typical 12 or 14, definitely something else is going on there. But also separation anxiety. And young children often morphs into social anxiety as they get older, so the child who never wants you to leave, or who never leaves, you might be the child who struggled socially, when they had towards middle school. So those are shifts we can kind of look for, mostly, if you have an anxious brain, which is somebody who's a little more negative, a little more, looking for danger to good quality, unless it's out of control. That kid who who is a little more anxious when they were younger, is likely to remain a little more anxious. And so they need to learn how to cope with being an anxious person. There are times where developmentally I see anxiety rise, that tends to be around five around eight. And then in early adolescence, I see more people are calling my office concerned about their anxious kids.
Steve Altishin 23:25
Even like going into college age?
Dawn Friedman 23:28
Oh gosh, yeah, any big change, we would expect anxiety to rise, which is one reason why in a divorce, I would expect anxiety to rise that divorce didn't cause it. Again, transitions mean, we're concentrating on a whole lot of things. And wherever we're struggling, we'll be struggling a little bit more.
Steve Altishin 23:49
Oh, my gosh, we're getting close to the end, unfortunately. But I do want to ask one more question. Actually, two more questions. So does this mean you're changing behavior? Does this mean like the goal is to make them not do something? Or is the goal make them make their brain pattern want to have another phrase? Get a little more? Not so high stress? Or is it they go together?
Dawn Friedman 24:25
It's pretty complicated. But basically, to simplify it, we want to teach our children not to avoid the things that scare them. So if you think about anxiety is about avoidance and anxiety when it's dysfunctional, is avoidance when avoidance is unnecessary. So if I never go to a birthday party, because I'm too shy, that's anxiety that's avoidance. We don't want kids to avoid those things. We want to teach them how to do it anyway, even if they're anxious, even if they're uncomfortable. So as a parent, we can think about things that we have On that scare, it's like being on this podcast is a little nerve racking for me it's public speaking, you know. But the opportunity is so great that I'm just going to suck it up buttercup and show up, I'm just going to be a manage those symptoms and show up, because I've learned how to manage my anxiety about public speaking. So we don't want to change who our children are, we want to strengthen their strong parts, so they can manage their more anxious parts. And that means we need to teach them how to not avoid and how to cope with those big feelings. And that's complex work. And we're the ones who have to lead them through it.
Steve Altishin 25:39
Wow, I got ever really looked at it quite that way. It's not the Okay, you stopped doing that, necessarily. It's a whole nother thing. And that actually probably bleed it into my last question, which is we're about, we're about to have to go. And I want to make sure you have time to give people your contact information. But before we do that journey, last words, I always like to ask you last words of wisdom that I didn't ask about or we didn't talk about that, you know, you would say, Well, if you have to remember anything, remember this?
Dawn Friedman 26:14
No, I think you hit the real important things. I think you hit them.
Steve Altishin 26:18
All right. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here. Again, before we go, let everyone know your contact information, how they can get a hold of you.
Dawn Friedman 26:30
So you can email me at dawn@childanxietysupport.com Or go to childanxietysupport.com and contact me there, my phone numbers on there, you're welcome to text me or call me. You can use the contact page. You can also sign up for my newsletter. If you're concerned that you are struggling with your child's anxiety, there is a quiz called the parenting pitfalls quiz. And when you take that quiz, it helps you figure out are you helping your child avoid anxiety in ways that are not good for either of you? So you can take the quiz, see what you think you need to talk to me about it, you can reach out and do that.
Steve Altishin 27:06
Thank you so much. It's really wonderful. Being able to talk someone who can take really complex, you know, science and, and make it understandable for people like me. So thank you so much for being here today.
Dawn Friedman 27:21
Thank you for having me. I love that you offer this resource for your clients and the world beyond.
Steve Altishin 27:27
Well, we do this because we get the kind of the ability to hear the kind of stuff you just said today. And so that was just that was just great. So everyone else. If you have any questions on today's topic, you can post it here, we can get contacted with Don again, she gave you her information and go straight to her but don't feel like you can't get if you forgot her stuff because you guys contact us. And until next time, stay safe. Stay happy be well.
Dawn Friedman 28:00
This has been Modern Family Matters a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Landerholm family law and Pacific cascade family law serving families in Oregon and Washington. If you are in need of legal counsel, or have additional questions about a family law matter important to you, please visit our websites at Landerholm law.com or Pacific cascade family law.com. You can also call our headquarters at 5032270 200. To schedule a case evaluation with one of our seasoned attorneys. Modern Family Matters, advocating for your better tomorrow and offering legal solutions important to the Modern Family
Outro:
This has been Modern Family Matters, a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Landerholm Family Law and Pacific Cascade Family Law, serving families in Oregon and Washington. If you are in need of legal counsel or have additional questions about a family law matter important to you, please visit our websites at landerholmlaw.com or pacificcascadefamilylaw.com. You can also call our headquarters at (503) 227-0200 to schedule a case evaluation with one of our seasoned attorneys. Modern Family Matters, advocating for your better tomorrow and offering legal solutions important to the modern family.