Chapter 7 vs. Chapter 13: How to Decide Which Bankruptcy Option Is Best for You

Join us as we sit down with bankruptcy attorney, Darin Wisehart, to talk through the differences between a Chapter 7 and Chapter 13 bankruptcy, and how to decide which option is best for you. In this interview, Darin answers the following:

•    How do I know which of these types of bankruptcies I may—or may not—qualify for?
 •    What are the benefits and consequences of filing a Chapter 7 or Chapter 13 Bankruptcy?
 •    What are the differences between a liquidation and a reorganization?
 •    When does a Chapter 7 or a Chapter 13 Bankruptcy let me keep my property? 
 •    Which should I consider if I own a home and want to keep it?
 •    Which should I file if I’m dealing with substantial unsecured debts like medical and credit card bills?
 •    What if I earn enough to cover an adjusted repayment of my debts?
 •    Which one costs more, a Chapter 7 Bankruptcy or a Chapter 13 Bankruptcy?
 •    Is there a difference about which debts go away and which I still have to pay? 
 •    If I’m getting divorced, which type is right for me? 

If you would like to speak with one of our family law attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.landerholmlaw.com.

Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.

Transcript

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Intro: 
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you. Covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters, with expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests, we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's your host, Steve Altishin.

Steve Altishin  0:28  
Hi, everyone. I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships here at Pacific Cascade Family Law, and today I'm here again with attorney Darin Wisehart to talk about the difference between a chapter seven bankruptcy and a chapter 13 bankruptcy, the advantages of each, and which may be the best for you. Hey, Darin, good morning. How are you doing today?

Darin Wisehart  0:54  
Great. How you doing?

Steve Altishin  0:57  
Well, I'm doing well, we're a little earlier than usual. So you know, I'm only on my third cup of coffee. But I think that I'm looking good. So before we start in, simple question, that kind of arose as we were going through, you know, the difference between a chapter seven and chapter 13. So, there are different types of bankruptcies...what's that about?

Darin Wisehart  1:21  
Well, there are a bunch of types of bankruptcies. So when you start looking at the process of bankruptcy, most people are looking at chapter seven versus chapter 13. That's where probably 90% of the people that I speak with are in that range. Now, there are definitely some other ones. There's chapter 11, Chapter 12 for farms, chapter 11 for businesses and people with a lot of assets. There are other chapters that we could sit and talk about, but most people that come in, we're talking chapter seven, or chapter 13. And that's really, that's the skinny of which road is going to be best, and that's the beginning of the conversation.

Steve Altishin  1:55  
Well, that's the beginning of the conversation, exactly right. So let's start with the chapter seven, you know, basically, let's kind of talk about how they work. 

Darin Wisehart  2:06  
Okay, Chapter Seven has to do with liquidation. So this is most people that come to the office, the idea of bankruptcy in their head is, you're going to take what you need, just the bare necessities, you're going to have that, and you're going to see if you can zero out that unsecured debt. And so that's what most people are coming to me to try to do. And obviously that's the goal, if it's possible. And so we call it liquidation, because we have exemptions that cover certain property values. And as long as all of your things are under those exemptions, then you can move through and take a look at that chapter seven. Now, there are other pieces to chapter seven, has to do with qualifying for chapter seven. And so obviously, we start with, do we have assets that can be protected? Are we going to have any assets that come into the case that may need to be paid back, or are going to be lost? And that's that first part of the chapter seven, because obviously, if we have to pay back, or we're gonna lose them, we want to look at a chapter 13. And we'll talk about that one in a second. But the chapter seven has this side of, let's see if we can zero out the debt, let's see if we can get this thing done in a shorter period of time, three or four months. And then the biggest piece of that next step is, do you qualify? And a big piece with Chapter Seven is, in the qualification of it, we deal with the Means Test. And the means test was put in by Congress, and it allows people that are under the median income in your state, and of a family your size--so we're looking at your family, if you have a bunch of kids, you can make more--and there are numbers, they change a little bit every year. So a lot of attorneys don't memorize those numbers, but it's the median income. And it just says, at a family your size in your state, are you under that median income? And if you are, you qualify for seven under those guidelines. So  that's kind of the easy one, then if you're a little over, sometimes there's some ways that an experienced attorney can look at that and say, you know, there's a chance that we can put you into a chapter seven, if it's the best thing for you. And of course, then the conversation shifts to, is there a benefit to a chapter 13 that may not be there with the chapter seven? And so that's kind of that next shift into looking at all three different views, which is what I try to do with every client, I always try to analyze what no filing looks like. I want to analyze what chapter seven looks like, and I want to analyze what chapter 13 or potentially 11 looks like for them.

Steve Altishin  4:33  
You've mentioned exemptions. Just what do you mean, what is an exemption?

Darin Wisehart  4:40  
So exemptions are the really nice thing of bankruptcy for most people that I sit across the desk from. When you're filing bankruptcy, what you're looking for is protections of your things, right? So a lot of people come into my office and they want their normal life to stay the same on the ground. They don't want things to change, and the best way for that to happen in bankruptcy is to allow the exemptions, which are these umbrellas of how much each category you can have. So for instance, with a car, it's around $4,000, with clothes, you get normal household goods, and furniture, and these things. You get a 401k exemption in a lot of states. It's, you know, it's huge. So you can protect that 401k, you get these exemptions, and those exemptions are dollar amounts in each category that protects each item group, that's really what it is. And if you're over that exemption, then in chapter seven, you will either lose that, or you'll have to repay that extra value. So those are kind of your choices. So if you have a really nice, antique, you know, Queen Mary type dresser, there's a good chance that it's got some significant value, and it's going to be over the exemptions. And now we need to talk about how do we protect that? How do we lose that? Or how do we repay that value over however long we can repay it?

Steve Altishin  6:04  
So let me get this straight. Say I have a car, it's worth $6,000, and the exemption is less than that. I can either say, Okay, I'll give it to you, the judge or trustee, or whoever runs the bankruptcy, to sell it and pay people, or I can take the extra value, and just give that to you, or pay it back to the people? 

Darin Wisehart  6:32  
Yeah, and that's the trade off, right? With a chapter seven, the idea is that if you have, let's say, you know, some people come to me with their car that they owned outright. And they tell me, you know, I really thought I was doing a good thing by paying off my car. Of course, they didn't know they were going through bankruptcy when they did that. And so they have a car that's worth $10,000. Well, in my state in Oregon, you can take that car, and you're going to exempt the $4,000. Okay, so you start by exempting this certain amount, it's just earmarked for cars. This is how much equity-- if your car's worth under $4,000, it's not even a conversation, it's not going anywhere, nobody's going to take it. So you don't have to worry about it with the bankruptcy. But in this scenario, your car's worth $10,000. And so you've got $6,000 of extra above the car exemption. Now, the beauty is, if your state is taking the federal exemptions, because there's different levels of exemptions-- of course, they want to make a complex, right? They don't want to make it easy. So there's two different roads in Oregon. And in a lot of states, there's two different roads you can take. We can take our state exemptions, Oregon, or we can take our federal exemptions, and those have different numbers. But the beauty of a federal exemption is it has its value of protection for the car up to the $4,000--well it's a little more than that. But and then you take that extra value, and you can use what's called the wildcard, and the wildcard is used for anything in that bubble. And so of course, you know, if you have somewhere a little over 13,000, 14,000, somewhere in that ballpark, you're doing fine, because you can protect. But if you've got one of those, you know, every once in a while, I guess, somebody that has a vintage car or something that's really, really nice, it's going to be over the value. And then what you need to do is you need to think about whether you file a 13, because that's going to allow you to keep the thing and pay it over time. Or we're just going to pay the value and you can even get an option of just handing the car back, then they give you your exemption amount, and they pay off the creditors with whatever's remaining. And so that's the trade off with the liquidation with a chapter seven bankruptcy.

Steve Altishin  8:31  
I like that. I like the wildcard, that makes sense to me. You know, as a fantasy baseball rotisserie guy, that's the utility player. That's the one you can get when you don't qualify for anything else.

Darin Wisehart  8:45  
Absolutely. The flex player is a wide receiver in football, right?

Steve Altishin  8:49  
That's exactly it, that's exactly it. So one quick question, and I don't want to get too much in the weeds, but you said there's a federal exemption and a state exemption. Is this a choose one or the other, and you take all of the federal ones and none of the state ones? Or you can pick and choose between them depending on the thing you're trying to protect?

Darin Wisehart  9:11  
Yeah, this was an interesting debate in our state. And I think this is one of those that is pretty solid. As far as looking at it from a theory standpoint, you've got to choose all or nothing, and you have to choose that when you file the case. So it's not like you get to say, I'm gonna change my mind and take the other ones. You want to make sure that you have a skilled attorney working on this so that they can break down the numbers and figure out which path is going to be best. And this is another one of those moments that I can always kind of talk about making sure that you give all your information to the attorney, because if you discover something the second week after you've filed then it might be too late to save that item. So it's always best to throw all the information there and your attorney can choose which which path is best for you and you can move that direction to protect the most things. And then if you end up losing some things, you have a plus and minus, you know? You have your, do we think this and do we go seven? Or do we take a look at chapter 13, which allows us to repay over time if we were going to lose something?

Steve Altishin  10:10  
I love it. Okay, so let me get this straight. You file a Chapter Seven, and all your debts go away?

Darin Wisehart  10:20  
We wish it was that simple, right? And if it was that simple, it would be too easy. So no, in chapter seven, there's debts that aren't going to go away. Of course, we talked about the basic ones--your student loans, without doing some additional process or having some other arguments to make-- your student loans will not go away, they're going to collect at the end. Newer taxes, those will not go away in a bankruptcy, or if you didn't file the taxes, those are not going to go away in the bankruptcy, at least at this point. So of course, taxes are one of those huge issues that, same with student loans, you want to speak with the attorney about because every attorney that does this for a living will always compartmentalize these conversations to say, Okay, you have student loans, let's talk about those. How do we deal with them? How can we deal with them? And it's not as cut and dry as what you often hear from people who call. They'll say, Oh, I know, student loans, they can't go away, and they'll say those things. And you think, Well, you know, that might have been true 10 years ago, but now, as attorneys, we're always kind of pushing to put our clients in the best possible spot. And part of that is dealing with those student loans and getting them into a happy place so that if they don't discharge them in bankruptcy, then we can figure out how to get to the light at the end of the tunnel for those. And that's part of, you know, all of those types of things in a chapter seven that aren't going to go away. If you owe money on back child support or spousal support, that's not going to go away. There are some of these things that will be there, and that'll be categorized by your attorney as you get prepared to file so that you can figure out what you're going to need to deal with in four months, assuming you get through the quick bankruptcy to take care of that credit card and medical debt, and all that other stuff that gets put in that bucket.

Steve Altishin  12:04  
Got it. Okay, sounds like we've got the basics down to what a chapter seven does. And as we were doing this, you're talking about chapter 13. So let's go there. What is a chapter 13 bankruptcy, and how does it differ from the chapter seven?

Darin Wisehart  12:24  
So the chapter 13 is the path that you have to go if you don't qualify for the Means Test. So you have to go 60 months, and it allows you to do a few things that a chapter seven does not allow you to do. So sometimes it's even in your interest to do with 13, even though you qualify for Chapter Seven, and it allows you to do a shorter chapter 13, which is that 36 month, and then you can choose between 36 up to 60, depending on what's in your best interest, right? So that'll be a discussion between you and your attorney. But the chapter 13 is called a reorganization. And it allows you to reorganize the debts, for lack of another word, and it allows you to kind of put everything in a different category, figure out what you have to pay, and what can you pay. And there's the two numbers that we always talk about in bankruptcy. I always put my two hands up, because there's what do you have to pay? You have to pay your taxes in the last four years, anything you owe, you have to pay any back child support or spousal support, you have to catch up that plan. And what you're doing is you're paying 30 days after you file your chapter 13 case, you'll pay your trustee the first payment. And what we try to do is put it in equal monthly payments. Now another beauty of the chapter 13 is it allows some flexibility. So if we can't make that solid payment in the beginning, it might allow us to bump up a payment after a month to a year, two years, whenever we think maybe there's going to be more income. Maybe you're going to start getting Social Security in two years or, you know, we can create a plan that has what's called a step up. And that allows us then to figure out how we're going to get paid what we have to pay in these equal monthly payments over that 60 months. And then the other equation is what can you pay? And this is where, you know, we we look at this budget, and we break down what you have in your pocket. So what's going to come out of your paycheck? What deductions come out? Are you contributing a reasonable amount of 401k? What taxes come out? Do you have to pay for uniforms, all that stuff. So we take that out. And then we do your normal budget for what you spend money on as far as your clothes and your food and your car repairs and gas and all the different things that every month comes out of your budget. And then the other bigger piece, which is always a reminder to clients, is to make sure that you put out things that you don't necessarily pay for all the time, like tires. You average them over 12 months, or maybe buy tires every two years. You want to make sure you get all of those expenses in that chapter 13 because that allows you to balance out the what can you pay number, and come up with a fair number. And that's a number--whichever number is higher, what do you have to pay, and what can you pay-- whichever number is higher is the number that you have to pay over the chapter 13 plan.

Steve Altishin  15:15  
Again, not going too far in the weeds, but you know, weeds are there. If I'm, let's say, contemplating filing, and my kid is a junior in high school, can I even like, start to consider the cost of college in that, 'what I can pay' category?

Darin Wisehart  15:36  
And  there is a golden question. So of course, when we're attorneys in the chapter 13 field, one of my goals is to try to put you in the position, the best position I can, with whatever path we take, right? So when we look at, okay, you're going to need to start saving now, the chapter 13 trustee is not going to like the idea that you're setting money aside for something down the road, that's not paying it towards those creditors. And the goal of that trustee is always to make sure that you're paying what's fair, what's right towards the creditors to zero out, conceivably, the rest that you didn't pay. And so that's your trade off in chapter 13. So if you have a specific item that you need to put aside, you know, sometimes people come to me and they say, Hey, I'm going to have to redo my roof in the next two years, I've got to do that. And so then we take a look at that, what's that going to do the budget, can we put money aside for that. Periodically we have people that say-- I had a client recently that had a car that needed to be replaced, and had 300,000 miles on it. And it was not going to make it through a 60 month plan before the person needed to buy a car. So we put it in, we went ahead and argued that we should be able to set aside some money for that car payment, and then when the car payment starts, then that car payment conceivably would be the same amount. And we could put the budget in a set dollar amount. Now, obviously, every case is different. And with chapter 13, I mean, every seven, every bankruptcy is different. But with chapter 13s, you really get some creativity that you can put together because most trustees, they do this for a living, they know kind of what the goal is, the goal is to put the person in a reasonable spot so that they can survive on the ground. But then the goal too, is also making sure that they can successfully get through the thing, because it's not easy to complete a chapter 13. You're talking five years, and a lot of things change in five years.

Steve Altishin  16:29  
That just brought up a question. Back a little earlier you were talking about it and it just came to my head. A reorganization...do you as the attorney for the person going bankrupt, or the bankrupt person, decide who gets paid? Or is the trustee the one who makes the decision which of your creditors get paid? And do they get paid in full?

Darin Wisehart  17:57  
So two questions right there which are very important to kind of deal with. The first question is, you know, how do we distinguish who gets paid? I mean, obviously, we can get in and we can say that you get paid, you don't get paid, you know, we can be Oprah with this, right? But we don't get to do too much with the classifications, and the rules are pretty straight with this, right? The classifications are unsecured debt, General, non priority unsecured debt, or priority debt. Now we have the priority section, which is your taxes and your arrearage for child support, that kind of stuff has to get paid. And so each category secured debt of items that we want to keep, those are  put in another category. We get to create the plan. And the beauty of this is the attorney, with the client, gets to kind of sit down, see what's there and break down how we're going to prioritize different things. So sometimes we choose to give away a car, maybe we have a third car we don't need to pay on, we give that back, we pay that debt as unsecured. So now instead of secured where we have to pay it, now it gets put in that unsecured bucket. And so what we do is we create the plan, we say, okay, we're proposing that we pay back these things at these values. And then there's certain things we have to pay, like your tax debt, and you know, your tax debt in the last four years, these kinds of things. And so each category gets dealt with as we put together the plan. We'd like to propose a plan that's reasonable, then the trustee is going to use words like feasibility to make sure that it can happen. And then we analyze, I mean, we're basically in that process, we're analyzing what portion of that unsecured debt needs to be paid. And that's that credit card and that medical debt, and I always call it the junk debt, the debt that's kind of sitting at the very end of the table just waiting to get something and every once in a while they get 100% of their claim that they file. Okay, so it that depends on really two things. I mean, there's more that it depends on, but the two bigger things are, what property do you have that is over your exemption amount? What do you have to pay back and then it also depends very, very largely on what type of extra disposable income you have each month. So if you have a lot of disposable income, then you're going to have to pay back a sizable chunk of that. And that might end up-- after secured and then priority taxes and those guys--it might end up trickling down to those unsecured debts, and you might end up having to pay, you know, a good portion of those.

Steve Altishin  20:22  
Yeah, well, that kind of leads into a question I'm sure a lot of people are thinking, which is, okay, I get now what they are, what's the advantage? I mean, you know, what's the advantage of going one way or the other? Maybe start with a seven, what's the advantages for doing that? 

Darin Wisehart  20:43  
Sure. And this is where I'm always putting a page together for every client and put a line jump down through the middle. If we know we're going through bankruptcy, we want to analyze it from that seventh and the 13th. Okay, so then, the advantage of the seven are pretty straightforward. The first advantage, obviously, is if we have a garnishment, it stops the garnishment. And so we're gonna get four months, at least, of quiet, which is called the automatic state. When the bankruptcy is filed, everybody has to kind of get off your back for a little bit so that you can figure out what's there and figure out how you're gonna deal with everything. Okay, so we're gonna get to stop the garnishment with both chapter seven and 13. And that's going to stop any foreclosures or anything like that. Now, with chapter seven, the foreclosure is going to start again at the end of the bankruptcy, so when it stops, they're gonna get going on it again. So if you're behind on your house, the chapter 13 is the main thing to look at, because that's going to allow us to catch up our house. And what it does is we we start making our mortgage payment, once we file our case, we make sure we make the trustee payment, which is something you and your attorney are going to work on to put together. And then we also make sure that we're paying the amount that we were behind, spread out over that 60 months. It's not always that way, because there are creative things an attorney can do if maybe you can't pay that amount, or, you know, whatever the situation is, maybe you're gonna get more money down the road. But that's an advantage to a 13. And I kind of look at those as a little bit of advantage of seven as well on both sides. The other advantages to seven is it's shorter, so you're only talking three to four months, which is obviously going to be cheaper for your attorney. And they can usually give you a flat rate for the whole start to finish process as long as it happens pretty smoothly. A lot of attorneys will give a flat rate, they won't bill hourly or any of that kind of stuff. So that's a nice advantage to know what dollar amount you need to pay to the attorney and to fees. That's the target to hit, and it's a shorter process. So you're out of the thing in four months and free to do whatever you want after the end of that thing. You have a few other benefits with chapter seven, most of them hinge on that idea that it's a shorter process. But you have some significant disadvantages too depending on what type of debt you have. And the beauty of the disadvantages is they can be dealt with with the chapter 13. So if you have items that are non exempt, then you know, you can pay them off in a seven, but it's going to be a shorter period of time, because that chapter seven trustee, they want to get paid quick, they want to get done with the case, they don't want to have that case open for three or four years with a 13. It's designed to allow you to do that for three to five years. So you can look at the 13 to pay off the debts that weren't gonna go away with the seven.

Steve Altishin  23:24  
And that's one of the big advantages of the 13, obviously.

Darin Wisehart  23:28  
Yep. And when you look at the advantages of the 13, there are a bunch of them. One is that it usually requires less down. A lot of attorneys are created to say, Okay, you're gonna pay me this much upfront when we get started. And then you can pay a little over time, and the attorney fee will be added to your trustee payment, which allows you then to boil it all into one payment, and to just get things taken care of. And that's one of the reasons why some people will come to me with a lot of income, they just want to put it into one payment. It's a little bit like a consolidation, the difference is, all of the creditors have to come to the table, they don't have a choice, with consolidation they get to choose whether they want to come to the table. And the other beauty of the 13, even at 100% payment, is that you only pay the claims that file. So when you notice the creditors, they get 70 days to file a claim. And on that 71st day, if they didn't file a claim, then they're not getting paid. And that could end up saving some money. That's a benefit for the chapter 13. Also a benefit is if you're behind on child support, you're behind on those, it'll allow you to catch it up without having to be garnished that huge chunk that most states will garnish you; they really sink their teeth in. And those are going to help, and it'll also help you to repay a car or to maybe even pay the value of the car versus the value of the loan. Sometimes people come to me with a $30,000 loan on a car that's worth $12,000, and you know, they bought that over 910 days ago. Then you can say well wait a second, I should pay the value of that car rather than the value of the loan. And so it allows that kind of forced negotiation. And then if you don't have the 910 days, if you've only had it two years, then obviously you'll talk about that, but then you might be able to negotiate sometimes with some creditors to see just exactly how flexible they're willing to be, or maybe just hand it back.

Steve Altishin  25:23  
You've talked about this, it seems like one of the real big advantages of a 13 is just in its ability to be flexible. The rules aren't, it doesn't seem, as hard and fast, and you have to fit into that square hole.

Darin Wisehart  25:39  
Exactly. And there's one other major benefit. So with a chapter seven, I always say, once you get in the river, you're in the river. You can't just say, Ah, I don't like this idea anymore, I'm gonna get out of the river, you can't do that. The trustee, they've got you, you are in and whatever you can do, legally, the trustee can do legally. So if you get in the river, and you have a personal injury claim, if it's not exempt, then the trustee gets to liquidate that. If you have something that turns out to be worth way more than you thought, then you know, maybe your house value is 150 to 200,000, instead of the 50,000, that you thought, once you're in that chapter seven, you're in now. You can convert to chapter 13, but that trustee has got their teeth in, and they're not letting go, they're not going to go anywhere. And the beauty of the 13, on that flip side, is once you file the 13, you get the absolute right to dismiss your case. And so at any time, if you get in there and you think you know, I don't really like where we're at, I don't like how this is going, I don't like the amount that I'm going to have to repay, whatever it is, you can take your cards off the table, you can hop out of that river, to use our river analogy. And that's a very good thing to have. Because in the chapter seven, if you have an arguable amount of house value of equity over your exemption, which is, you know, between 40 and 50, it's different numbers for different states, some states actually have a lot of house equity value that they protect. But if you have too much, then you can get out of these other cases. But in the seven, that trustee is not going to allow you to do that, and they may end up selling your house. So I always tell clients, when you have a house, you have to know the value of it before you want to go through a chapter seven, because you can roll the dice with a 13. But you do not want to roll the dice with a seven, or you might end up losing your house.

Steve Altishin  27:33  
Yeah. And like you say, every case is different. Every case has different laws that are more or less important. There is such a need to have an attorney, and you see so many people thinking, I'll just go file a bankruptcy, I don't need an attorney for that. I mean, to me, this is like the lambs being led to the slaughter, you really do need to have legal counsel in this thing. 

Darin Wisehart  28:02  
Yeah. And it can really break your heart, as an attorney, because periodically you'll get calls from people, I got one this week from someone who had been through a case and had dealt with the case a long time by themselves, and you think well, once you get in, you're around, and the trustees know what they're doing. You don't get rookie trustees or people that don't know what they're doing. They know what they're doing. And the judges know the law too. So if you get in and you don't know this, that's the spot you don't want to be, especially because most chapter seven trustees or most chapter seven bankruptcy attorneys are very reasonably priced. You know, they'll find a way to get you creatively to the spot we need to go. And every client has said before, you know, we're always looking at their case independently and differently. How can we deal with this case? How can we get you to where we need? And how we how can we get the funds to get that done as well, so that we do the job right? And that's part of the the equation that goes in with a creative attorney, you can always get that. And every time I sit in front of somebody, those are things that are going through my head, how do I get you to the end goal? And how do I achieve all the goals, which is pay the fees, get all the documents, get everything done correctly, and get you to the end, where you have an amazing smile on your face still, instead of thinking about the attorney that didn't do everything and didn't represent you correctly.

Steve Altishin  29:24  
Wow. Wow. Well, we blew through that half hour. And Darin, again, thank you for being here today. Always great insight on, in this case, the differences between a seven and a 13 bankruptcy. All as always, again, these are complex issues. These are not simple, but you make them understandable. That's really important. So thank you again for being here today.

Darin Wisehart  29:24  
No problem. Thank you for having me back.

Steve Altishin  29:53  
And again, thank you everyone for joining us today. It was an interesting topic, and we're to have more with Darin, I can tell you that. And if you have any questions right now, you can post them here, and we can get you connected with Darin. Until then, everybody stay safe, stay happy, and have a good weekend.

Outro:
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